Artificial intelligence is reshaping our world.

From online searches to streamlining workflow to videos that entertain us online.

But powering it requires something most of us never see.

Massive data centers, facilities that use enormous amounts of land, water and electricity.

Proposals for new hyperscale data centers in Pennsylvania.

And right here in the Lehigh Valley are sparking debate surrounding economic growth, infrastructure and environmental impact.

This is a community conversation.

The data center debate.

Here's your host, Brittany Sweeney.

Good evening, and welcome to a community conversation, the data center debate brought to you by Lehigh Valley Public Media.

Tonight, we're taking a closer look at a rapidly emerging issue right here in Pennsylvania.

The rise of AI driven data centers, these large scale facilities power everything from cloud storage to artificial intelligence tools, but they also require significant resources.

Over the next hour, we'll hear from economists, policymakers, planners and energy leaders to explore what data center development could mean for our region now and in the future.

To begin, we're looking at the state and local planning surrounding data centers and artificial intelligence infrastructure.

Joining us now is Jill Seitz, the chief community and regional planner at the Lehigh Valley Planning Commission, and Abby Smith, president and CEO of Team Pennsylvania.

Thank you both so much for joining us.

This evening.

Thanks for having me.

Thanks for having me.

This is a big topic.

We're going to get right to it.

Jill, I'd like to start with you give us some overview of what is a data center for those who don't know, we keep hearing about these large data centers.

What are they?

Sure.

And I think, in the intro, it actually gave a very great, high level, Data centers are the physical buildings that store, servers that, manage all the, the data that goes behind, the technology that we're using every day and we're using more and more, these facilities can really range in sizes.

They can be as small as a closet that, would be within an office building and serve a business locally scaled all the way up to the hyperscale facilities that we're really, hearing the community concerns about lately.

That can be millions of square feet.

Host.

Whether it's a mega corporation like a Google or an Amazon or even have a lot of, businesses co-locating within, the servers in that facility.

I think a common misconception here is that data centers aren't here yet because we keep hearing about these proposals, but data centers are already in the Lehigh Valley, correct?

That's absolutely correct.

And as, I was alluding to, some major corporations that we know of probably has their own data centers locally.

There's, some smaller scale facilities at Bethlehem.

There's a larger scale facility out in western Lehigh County.

And so they are here, they've been here for quite a while now because, you know, this is infrastructure that, we've really needed to support all the digital evolution of the internet and, telecommunications.

And, they are here now.

We just don't have them at that hyperscale level yet.

Great.

And, Abby, I want to bring you into the conversation.

Thanks so much for joining us.

TPA is a organization, a group that is co-chaired by the governor.

So where do you fit into the conversation with data centers?

Wherever the sitting governor is as our co-chair.

So we are a nonpartisan, neutral organization.

We're focused on the health of Pennsylvania's economy.

And one of the key roles that we see is making sure that we have really thoughtful leadership when it comes to, what's happening in Pennsylvania's economy.

This is a huge topic.

And it's not just a huge topic because of the data centers themselves.

It really is a conversation that also includes topics around energy.

And I rollout the infrastructure that's going to build that out.

And so while we as an organization are not a policymaking organization, we are really interested in making sure that actually the solutions that we don't normally see on the fringes of the conversation.

So we want to make sure that we're having those conversations and just understanding what are the key things we need to contend with.

What are the economic opportunities, and then what do we really want for communities?

We work at the state level statewide.

And so I think the idea that we as a statewide organization can consider that this huge opportunity for the whole of Pennsylvania, but with deep understanding that it's going to be regional leaders like Jill and her team that are ultimately going to have a much better sense of what each community is going to have to contend with.

Abby, across the state right now from a statewide perspective, what are the conversations being had around this topic?

Number one, anyone who's, looking at a map of where these data centers are being considered, has to know that they are definitely looking at Pennsylvania because we have significant energy infrastructure.

We have a lot of the energy itself, and we have the infrastructure around it.

There's still a lot of questions about whether or not our current grid infrastructure can handle some of this increased activity that we're going to see.

And one of the things that's going to actually play a huge role in that is how I can transform, how efficient we can be with our current grid resources and where we actually need to build out some of this is, going to have to, at a certain point, figure out what's real and what's not.

And so a lot of what we're hearing about is the energy that's going to be needed.

Water resources is a huge topic, and the technology is so rapidly evolving that even in the many months that we've been looking at this topic, I will say that there are projects that right now have closed loop systems that don't even use the kind of water resources that, even in the opening, we were talking about the extensive resources.

There's such different things project by project and such different technology coming online that it's a rapidly evolving topic as well, that we're not just hearing about in Pennsylvania, we're hearing about nationally, we're hearing about globally.

And then it's really a matter of how do we take Pennsylvania's assets and bring them to bear?

Because I would love to see Pennsylvania figure out how we maximize the economic opportunity and minimize some of the impact, while considering how we all work together to do that.

Sure.

The governor and other economic development organizations have sort of courted some of these data centers to come to Pennsylvania, although people who live in these communities have some concerns.

So what's the interest there?

And how do we kind of bridge that gap between the two?

You know, I don't want this in my neighborhood, but it's good for the state in general.

Big question.

Right?

No, it is the question.

And I actually don't think that there are perfect answers here.

I don't think that data centers are going to be right for every pocket of the Commonwealth.

But I will say that a lot of Pennsylvania energy is used in the broader region, and we're going to need critical buildout of infrastructure in order to meet this moment.

I would hate to see all of our energy just get exported to other places to build this out, and we don't realize any of the economic benefit.

So I think some of it is just figuring out what the right balance is to build some of this in some of the right places.

A lot of the areas that are zoned industrial across the state that are seeing some of this activity, what you're seeing sometimes is interest.

We don't know what projects are really going to come to fruition.

So some of a type, some of it's actually going to be shovel in the ground and there's a lot in between.

So I would say that when I take a step back and think about this and think about what I would want to see in my own community, which is definitely, you know, the discussions happening at my local library lately, actually, is that number one, there is a list of key things that you have to contend with as a community.

And there are people in the community that are rooted in the community that understand those issues.

These are everyone from your electric utility, water sewer.

There's lots of different planning, planning commissioner planning folks like Jill and her team.

You want to make sure that those players are coming to the table.

And similarly, the developers can be part of those conversations as well.

I think that what we're also starting to see is community benefits agreements that consider all kinds of things, from how the community needs to benefit, what kinds of priorities.

We saw a recent project in Lancaster that's not too far from here, and I think that that was a great example.

The community benefits agreement that was led by the city, that made sure that the community was going to get the things that they wanted and that the development was going to happen in a responsible way.

So to me, I'd rather not see us lead in some sort of all or nothing way.

This is not a binary kind of situation.

It's really figuring out where do we site these things, where does it make sense to do that?

What are the key things we need to contend with, and what do we want to see within our community?

Answering those things gets us to much better results.

Great.

Some great information there.

And throughout this program, we're asking our viewers to weigh in as well.

We have a submitted question here from Laura Ray and she was asking, I heard there is support at the state level to offer incentives to build data centers.

Why would we want to encourage that?

These do not seem like a type of business that need subsidies or tax breaks.

Can you answer that, Abby?

Sure.

We have, have a tax incentive program that's been in place actually prior to Governor Shapiro's administration.

And, you know, not every incentive is actually connected to one project or another.

Sometimes you really do have to tailor different things for for different projects.

What I will say is that we at TPA are not focused on those carrots and sticks that happen at the state level.

So I can't really speak for the policymakers that put that in motion.

But what I can say is that as developers are considering where to develop and we do want to be economically competitive right now, one of the big topics that's kind of related here is also this requirement that we're seeing, and we're seeing this talked about at the state level in Pennsylvania with a Democratic governor and at the federal level with Republican president.

About bring your own generation.

Right.

And so, well, that's a little bit different than the incentive question that this viewer's asking.

I think it's related in the same kind of way that we can maybe give some things but get some things.

And so part of it is figuring out how do we attract business.

And this is, again, a program that's already been in place.

So this is not something in this new wave of excitement.

But then thinking about how do we also get what we need.

So thinking about not wanting to raise rates for taxpayer for rate payers too much, and how bring your own generation can also be part of that solution.

Sure.

And as you said, the president had said that earlier this week.

We're going to get into that a little bit more later in the program.

But, Jill, I want to bring you back into the conversation.

So how do data centers fit into the planning, you know, here in the Lehigh Valley?

And, and how do you decide what's coming, what's not and what fits for us?

Sure.

Well, before communities can even really begin planning, they really need to understand what they're enabled to do by the state powers.

Right.

And so communities are enabled to regulate their zoning in their land use through the Pennsylvania Municipalities Planning Code, the state's law that gives them that ability to zone.

And within that empowerment, the state says that every community must zone for all land uses somewhere.

So that really turns a lot of these conversations not into yes or no.

It's okay.

We need to allow them somewhere.

So where does that make the most sense?

And so that can come down to what's the right place with the right infrastructure.

What size maybe could our community accommodate based on the infrastructure we have?

Where would it not make sense if we have significant environmental resources that need to be protected?

There's areas with, maybe substantial, residences and neighborhoods that, maybe we feel that the impacts may be too great and not to locate them in those areas, but at the same time, maybe there's regulations that we can create that would protect those areas as well.

And so maybe there could be some co-location.

And that's a lot of factors for communities to think about.

Jill.

We've just seen this kind of with the warehouse boom.

Right.

We saw a lot of backlash from that.

Do you think that this next step, deciding whether we have AI data centers, does that warehouse boom, and how people thought about that play into these decisions?

It absolutely does.

And that's one of the ways that we are talking about this.

Now to our, local governments is to be proactive.

And with the warehouse boom, we did see a lot of, reactionary situations where, a large scale logistics facility was located in a community.

That was it.

They didn't have the regulations in place to manage the freight movements.

And, what do we want to ask for when a development comes in?

And so, already within the last year, we've seen upwards of ten municipal zoning ordinances already.

Just trying to be proactive and regulate and plan for, those data center proposals.

Sure.

And we actually have another viewer question here.

And this one's for you, Jill.

Governor Shapiro, in his budget address this month, outlined a set of requirements for data center projects that he would like to see incorporated in state law.

If these requirements were implemented at the state level with local jurisdictions, lose the ability to impose additional obligations or restrictions on projects that meet the state standards and this comes from Bob Martin.

So they would not because the state empowers communities to plan for they can they have their comprehensive plans that establish their local community vision.

From there, they can create their zoning ordinances that determine where do we want those uses to go and what do we want them to operate like once they are constructed.

And then they also have their subdivision and land development ordinances, which once that proposal does come in, this is exactly the design criteria that we would like to see.

And so, these conversations that are happening at the state level are more along the lines of providing guidance and setting that, example and the mindset for these communities.

But that doesn't detract from those regulatory powers that communities do have.

Shaw and Abby, when it comes to regulating these areas, what do we have to take into consideration from a local standpoint?

I wish that I had a very simple short list for you, and I do think that there really are different considerations and different locations.

I will say that, when what we've seen works well is to make sure that the different topics that are coming up, whether that's water and electricity, but also thinking about everything from community benefits to ultimately what that impact is going to be.

What are we really talking about with these different projects?

As Jill mentioned, there are so many different types of data centers, and so sometimes we're hyped up on something that isn't even a specific project.

It's just the idea of data centers.

And sometimes you're talking about a really specific project, in which case, you know, as Jill talked about, there are processes that give the public a chance to weigh in on those specific projects to learn about them.

And that is where you develop that list to say, what do we have to consider here?

What are those environmental implications?

Because project a project, you're looking at things where sometimes you're employing different technologies.

You're talking about a totally different footprint, a totally different scale, and you have very different types of developers, different types of companies.

And they have different priorities and guiding principles themselves.

So rather than put these all into one bucket, we really do have to look at these things on an individual basis.

And then it's incumbent upon all of us, and especially our local township supervisors, county commissioners, to roll up our sleeves and to work with all those parties, create that shared table.

And I think that's the only way that we do these things well.

And for, for me, you know, I'd love to make sure that we're really when we are talking about data centers, we're talking about it in terms of actual projects and what to consider for each of those, because there just is not one, broad based brushstroke that we can take.

Sure.

So how do we compete for that innovation, but also ensure that we're protecting our quality of life?

Right.

Is that the big question here?

How do we protect where we live and work and play, but also have this innovation and kind of boost the economy in this area?

Well, for whatever it's worth, the Lehigh Valley and I can just say this as somebody who sits at that state level, has that reputation of an innovation corridor.

There is so much that happens here.

Lehigh Valley is constantly punching above its weight, and that's something I see Reputationally it's something that I'm proud of as somebody who was born here.

And what I will also say is that, you know, all of the different whether it's health care and life sciences companies and manufacturers that are coming to Lehigh Valley, they're coming in part because of that innovation corridor that's been created here.

And it's everything from Lehigh University.

I know they're going to be featured here as well today, but there are so many different aspects to what goes on in this community that this is just an additional add on.

This is about AI adoption that's going to happen in our manufacturing facilities, in our health care facilities.

That is already starting to happen.

And so thinking about the data centers as the critical infrastructure, I think for me, one of the things that the opportunity offers is that then these large tech companies have suddenly a footprint in our communities, and then we have an opportunity to see some of that.

The already booming economy that exists here and the growth opportunities that still exist, the way that that compare with a tech company suddenly having boots on ground and making sure that they're making investments in the community, then that becomes much more of a conversation and a collaboration rather than having to kind of, you know, back up in a corner and say, what are we going to do?

This thing is coming.

Sure.

I think that the idea that we can instead say, we already have a thriving innovation economy, and then how we pair that with a tech company that's going to come into this community, they become a partner and an already existing vibrant table.

Great.

And, Abby, we said earlier, that we had needed to be talking about specific sites right now, there's a site across from Parkland High School that is a proposal.

There's also one of the old air products site as well.

There was one announced just yesterday, and it's being referred to as a community focused data center campus.

It's planned for Lower Mount Bethel Township.

And so when these projects are announced and the planning starts, where does the Planning Commission come in?

On a project like this?

So typically we'll come in, in that state law, the municipalities planning code, it requires any plans formally submitted to a municipality for review to also be submitted to the Lehigh Valley Planning Commission.

Because, our role is tied to that municipal review where they're doing the technical review against their zoning ordinances and their development ordinances.

Our role throughout that process is to provide advisory guidance based on future of the regional plan, kind of looking at more of that 30,000ft level.

How might this affect your neighboring communities, things that municipalities may not always be thinking about when they're deep in the weeds doing a review.

But on this particular project, we did have the opportunity to meet with the, developers team.

They have initiated this really great, community discussion earlier on in the process, they started talking to the township already and the state I know.

And then they did come to us just to get some initial discussion and feedback going.

Sure.

Does the Commission plan to bring the public into that conversation, or when do they bring the public into that conversation?

So once the township receives the formal plans for review, then we will, have our, public meetings and, go through the, the legally required, process.

How often are you seeing this point?

It seems like it seems like almost every other week.

Now, we're hearing about these big projects that are potentially coming to the area again.

As Abby said, they're not all going to come into fruition.

But how often are you seeing this now?

So this the, project that was just announced will be the third, most public, project that we've seen so far.

We have completed a review process for two other proposals, hyperscale proposals in the Lehigh Valley.

And so I think because of the timing of all of these, it feels like, a lot of projects are being proposed.

In reality, it's really just a handful because there's only so many locations and sites that makes sense for these hyperscale facilities to go.

And they've already, for the most part, been selected by those applicants that would put those applications forward.

Great.

And one of our viewers is asking a question.

This is from Mary Erdman.

She wants to know, is there a timeline?

When will we see one of these facilities up and running here in the Lehigh Valley?

Can you give us any ideas?

Oh, wow.

It can.

It can take a substantial amount of time to actually, get to that construction process because, especially with these hyperscale facilities, there's a lot of, state permitting, that, is a part of that process.

By the time it is fully approved by the municipality, gets all those permits from DP and any other agencies that may be required, depending on what's proposed.

It could take several years for even, construction to begin.

Sure, sure.

These are not small buildings either.

They take time to, to grow.

So then, Abby, I would ask you, five years after these are in place, what does success look like for one of these hyperscale data centers in a community like the Lehigh Valley?

I think that because you have really good local decision makers who are thinking through these things, and I think we all know, you know, not every partner, corporate partner, real estate partner is created equal.

And so hopefully as part of that process, there is that consideration about the different players that are coming to the table such that they then have skin in the game.

They care about the growth of the community, so that in that five year stretch, you're seeing that in innovation economy flywheel, where AI is really fit in.

And those tech companies, it's not just that you're taking advantage of the investment that they're making in a building, that you're also taking advantage of the investment in a community.

And that in addition to the investment in the community, that there's actual engagement, they can build it and not be present, or they can build it and actually be present, and they can be engaged, and they could be part of the larger community conversation.

For me, what I want to see, Reputationally, is that Pennsylvania has embraced the opportunities in ways that have also mitigated some of the challenges, and that we can be a leader in how the innovations that come about through what data centers make possible are applied to our energy problems, applied to healthcare, applied to life sciences, to manufacturing in a people centered way?

Because I think that's actually something that sometimes gets lost in the conversation.

But that ultimately it's going to be people who make this happen.

It's community members that sit around the table, and it really is going to require us to think about how to do that.

So five years from now, let's hope that we didn't lead necessarily with no.

What we lead with is what's going to be good for our community and how do we make that happen.

And we do that as partners.

And I think that's actually a possible thing.

If we consider how we how we get started and what the long term path looks like with a shared vision, I had some great information.

Abby and Jill.

Finally, I would just ask you if folks in our community want their voices heard and be part of this conversation, how do they do so within their area that they live in?

When municipalities are having these conversations, a lot of the communities that we've seen be proactive with their ordinances have, done so because of so much, feedback that they've heard from community concerns around these uses.

And so I think, people attending their local meetings is really important.

In some of those projects that have already been proposed that we reviewed, the communities were really proactive about getting information out to the communities as soon as they received it, you know, with the foresight, knowing that this was going to be a very large community conversation and affect a lot of people in the municipality.

And so a lot of, communities are kind of thinking about making sure that everybody is in the loop.

And I would also add, aside from a project being proposed in a community like, actual building ready to go in, people should really think about, being more involved in the comprehensive planning process and also thinking about how that, can affect their regulations, because once that building is proposed, the community has to follow what those ordinances say.

And so if, there is a situation where a community wasn't proactive to address some of those impacts, it reduces a lot of the opportunity and leverage for the communities to address a lot of those impacts.

Jill and Abby, some really great information here.

A lot of questions coming in from our audience and our viewers.

We're going to get to more of those questions.

If we don't get to them within the program.

We are extending the program on our YouTube on PBS 39 YouTube page to continue this conversation, and asks more questions.

We thank you both for joining us.

Thank you.

Well, about 4000 data centers are online in the U.S., according to a leading industry researcher.

That includes more than 100 in Pennsylvania, data centers are becoming the invisible backbone of modern life.

Powering a world of online interactions and transactions, according to their many proponents, opponents say that they're anything but hidden in the communities where they operate.

Many are massive buildings located in rural and suburban areas.

A few of those structures are being proposed right here in the Lehigh Valley.

As you just heard.

Reporter Jason Adi takes us to two proposed sites.

Thanks, Brittany.

I'm here at the former Air Products headquarters on Citron Road in Upper Macungie Township, where the company is planning to build a two point 6,000,000 square foot data center.

As you can see, this won't be a small undertaking.

Several small data centers are already in the Lehigh Valley.

To Your point operates two facilities in Hanover Township and Bryan Kingsville that offer about 150,000ft² of working space.

And Lehigh University runs two micro data centers to support its cyber infrastructure.

I understand the need for it.

I don't think we're there yet to put it in the backyards of people that will be directly impacted negatively by it.

We can't stop the progression of humanity.

I get that and everybody uses it in some sense, but we have to put these in a way that reduce their overall impact.

But officials in Lehigh Valley municipalities are working quickly to prepare their communities for an expected boom of hyperscale data centers that can cover millions of square feet and reshape local economies.

Upper Macungie Township supervisors met this week to discuss zoning for the project.

Do you support data centers?

Absolutely not.

It would be my A for my my house.

I mean, just the energy usage, the water usage.

And we're very concerned about the noise that we've heard that it's going to, also have in the community.

So now I do not know, I am afraid that, Upper Macungie doesn't have the resources to support a data center that uses a city's worth of water.

A city is worth of electricity, and it's going to be right here in our backyard.

I don't think Upper Mackenzie has the resources to support that.

I think it, the proximity to residences and the consumption of water in the western Lehigh County here is already tremendous.

It's off the boards.

And I think the amount of groundwater that will be affected, especially affecting residents in immediate proximity, will be highly detrimental to the community.

They approved regulations late last year to guide where and how data centers can operate quickly, adopting zoning changes as Air Products prepared its plans.

I think it's just moving too, too fast.

We're going to slow things down.

Just take one step at a time, one step at a time, one step at a time.

And I just think that, just flooding back with these data centers, just here and there, and I just think there needs to be slow down.

I just think it's moving too quickly.

We want to minimize our impact.

Not saying nothing can be done right, but there's definitely advancements that need to happen to reduce noise impact and impact.

As well as, you know, like you said, the energy impacts as well.

Officials in several other townships are now looking to follow up or country's lead.

South Whitehall, North Whitehall and Upper Saucon townships are pursuing new ordinances that lock data centers into restricted zones and limit their impacts on air, water, soil, wildlife, emergency services and more.

I don't have concerns about the consumption of energy, but what I do have concerns about is the cost of energy to residences and businesses, affected in the area.

I and all the other things.

I'm all for that, but not here because we don't have the resources to support it.

Just a few miles away from the air products site here in South Whitehall Township, a five point 1,000,000 square foot hyperscale facility is being proposed just across the street from Parkland High School.

The site, which features six data center buildings and an electrical substation across 410 acres or more than 90 football fields.

Just to give you an idea of how massive some of these sites are.

Back over to you, Britney.

A really large site there.

Thank you so much, Jason.

Although dozens of people showed up to voice opinions about the Air Products project at last night's Upper Macungie Township zoning meeting, the developer asked to table that proposal until May.

Well, data centers don't just require space, they require massive and reliable energy.

As discussions around data centers grow, so do economic concerns.

Joining us now is Alberto Le Madrid, a professor of economics for Lehigh University.

Thank you so much for joining us.

Thank you for the invitation.

Absolutely.

You're also part of the center for Advancing Community Electrification Solutions at Lehigh University.

So not only the study of of economics, but we're looking at electricity and how the two come together.

So I ask, the big concern for a lot of people right now is, is this going to affect me and my utility bill?

And so heavy electric electricity use by these major data centers, how do they impact the average homeowner or person paying an electric bill so they can enter through direct ways or through indirect ways?

So one of the indirect ways is going to be through the electricity bill.

And like one of the things that you are going to be observing is that.

So let's say that you have a new data center that is going to be connecting as you heard from the segment, and these are going to be several football large fields, and they're going to be using up large amounts of electricity, sometimes megawatts.

So for your viewers to get an idea when weather is around a thousand homes and this can be hundreds of megawatts, maybe thousands of megawatts.

So it's a large amount of electricity.

These data centers are going to be connecting.

And so you're going to be needing investments in the distribution system.

So that would be your local utility.

People.

Typically we produce electricity far away from where we consume it.

So in that sense, we're going to be needing to invest in transmission, in PJM in the Lehigh Valley, like we're served by people and people is part of an organization that is called PJM.

PJM is a large organization that runs markets.

There's a market that actually determines the price of electricity.

And these prices are potentially going to be going to be going up.

Now, economics 101, whenever you have more demand than supply prices, there's going to be some inflationary pressure.

So one thing that can occur is that actually like even since we want to avoid having any kind of like these spikes, it's we can create another market and these other market is just like to have enough generation that is going to be able to provide those kind of, electricity, like the power that we need.

And the energy that is required, that is called the capacity market.

The capacity market is going to be having inflationary pressures as well.

So typically your price of electricity is around $60 per megawatt hour.

In the capacity market are going ten times sometimes that high rate.

So actually, Governor Shapiro put a cap on those prices.

Whenever you put a cap, like think about your supply and demand equilibrium is because is below the equilibrium level, right?

So is below the price that you would see if you didn't intervene with that market.

So that's going to be something that can affect, Abby, in the previous panel she was mentioning about bring your own generation BYOB.

So if these data centers are going to be bringing, this kind of like, noone like, let's say generation into the mix, then like, is potentially less the pressure that you're going to be having on the electricity prices.

Right.

Like there is going to be a direct channel that is going to be affecting potentially bills.

Now our bills we typically are going to be paying from auctions.

That happened 12 months and 24 months ago.

So like I said delay effect.

Gotcha okay.

And you mentioned bring your own electricity.

Yes.

Bring your own.

Yes.

And so we heard about this earlier in the week from our president.

This week, during his state of the Union address, President Trump announced a plan to keep the financial burden surrounding the energy use of data centers off the American people.

Many Americans are also concerned that energy demand from AI data centers could unfairly drive up their electric utility bills.

Tonight, I'm pleased to announce that I have negotiated the new rate payer protection pledge.

You know what that is?

We're telling the major tech companies that they have the obligation to provide for their own power needs.

They can build their own power plants as part of their factory, so that no one's prices will go up.

And in many cases, prices of electricity will go down for the community and very substantially down.

This is a unique strategy never used in this country before.

We have an old grid that could never handle the kind of numbers, the amount of electricity that's needed.

So I'm telling them they can build their own plant, they're going to produce their own electricity.

It will ensure the company's ability to get electricity, while at the same time lowering prices of electricity for you, and could be very substantial for all of you.

Cities and towns.

And the president is expected to meet with tech companies and have them sign that pledge at the white House next week.

So, Alberto, I ask you, is there any teeth to this pledge?

Can we hold these tech companies accountable once they.

And if they sign these pledges, what does this all mean to us as the average person?

Yeah, it is possible that actually you're going to be having some teeth to it, right.

And it depends basically the way that they implemented like in certain cases you can provide some kind of like for example, direct payments to consumers.

We should maybe consider where the more, vulnerable segments of population, right, so they can receive some kind of check that is going to be allowing them to afford their electricity.

That would be a form of electricity of protection for this kind of like electricity spike in the beginning, the prices.

It could be that in certain cases, like you're going to be having a cap directly, which as I said, I as an economist, I hear a cap and I start getting like a little bit of an itchy feeling.

You know, I don't like to hear about caps because that is basically intervening in the market.

If they bring their own generation, that could mitigate some of it.

The main, concern that I have is that, like when you start looking before, like we used to have had a number of, spare capacity generators available.

Now we're running into binding constraints, like, you know, like this may take before it would take 2 to 3 years.

Now you can take twice as much.

Right?

So, you know, it is possible that we are going to be seeing in the short run prices spikes in the long run.

Like maybe there's going to be some, settling into a lower level.

So we need to be ready for that.

We need to start thinking about who's the most vulnerable members of community and give them protections.

Sure.

And putting on your electricity hat here.

Why do these centers need so much electricity?

Why do they take so much power?

Why do they need all of that in these facilities, even if they're not the hyperscale facility, they're still using a lot of electricity.

Yes.

And, you know, like so when you think about the electricity use, so like, everybody uses like, you know, all of us have a smartphone every time that we use, like Google to do a search, we're going to be using electricity.

And it uses like a 1.3W.

Our so for you to get an idea of three what our is, basically, if I turn on a light, a 60 watt light for 15 seconds, that is going to be the amount of energy that I'm using.

If I'm going to be using a query with a large language model like Jupiter or Gemini or whatever is your, preferred choice, that is going to be using 3 to 10 times as much, right?

So like and now people are using this millions of times per hour.

Right.

So in that sense, like for a data center you can have these are doing responses like in their hardware, which are going to be responding to these millions of queries.

So you're going to be needing like hundreds of megawatts.

So analyzer, you need all of that processing power.

This is the hardware part to the software.

You know, the artificial intelligence.

Sure.

One of our viewers, this is Scott from a country, and he was asking me if you can give us an idea of just how much water and electricity a hyperscale data center uses.

Is there any comparison to your average business or home in the Lehigh Valley?

How much are we really talking here?

Yeah.

So in terms of energy, the amount of useful and one of these data centers could be ten megawatts.

It could be 100MW, it could be 1000MW.

For you to get an idea, the whole of people.

And this is not only the Lehigh Valley.

So people covers the Poconos, covers Harrisburg, they have around seven gigs of peak demand.

Right now in the Q is possible that is going to be doubling just because of this demand.

Right.

So legendary in that sense is basically larger than whatever is the whole footprint of people, not a single facility.

This would be all of the, data center facilities in terms of the water, usually among the 10%, largest users of water.

And that is because every time that you are going to be, you may have Philly.

So whenever you start vaccine your computer, it starts spinning, it starts getting warmer.

So you need water, you know, to start cooling the.

So you are going to be cooling the processing that is required.

And you're going to be using water in the electricity production.

So there is a direct use as well.

And there is an indirect use because of the electricity.

Alberto, is there ever an instance where you could reuse that water or it doesn't have to be new water all the time?

No, actually I was mentioning the previous panel.

That is what we call a closed loop system.

So you know, a Lehigh, you actually we have, faculty researching on that.

You can start, using that closed loop.

So similar to when the revolution was happening, like we were trying to reuse as much as we can of that.

We can start, for example, directly cooling the chips that are doing this computation.

So, we can start like doing like, for example, some immersion, of the, the processors into water.

That is going to be having some companies like, like or something like that.

Sure.

And our viewer Charlie from Bethlehem had had the same question about that and asked, at what level are we seeing these businesses use this closed loop system?

Is it just the new businesses, or are they already in place?

Some of them are coming into place, right.

Like the main thing is like, Avi and you were mentioning like data centers are very thorough.

Genius.

They're very different.

So like the newer ones, they're incorporating all of these new technologies.

The older ones, you need to retrofit them and retrofitting them is expensive.

Right.

So like and in certain cases where it's still understanding like the technology.

So that's where places like my university Lehigh is doing research.

You know, I like to see what is the most economic way to do these kind of retrofits.

Alberto, is there any other sector where we've seen such a surge and demand for something?

And then the utility bills did not go up where we were able to keep them pretty consistent.

Any examples in history?

Not not at this level.

Yeah, I would say the the growth that we're seeing in the electricity is unprecedented.

And this is particularly troubling because if you think about the last 20 years, our demand for electricity was relatively constant.

So even though the economy was growing like, you know, in developing countries, actually we see the GDP and electricity growth, are moving in tandem.

In the case of the US, the decoupling happened like around 2005.

Now is because of all of that, electricity use that we're going to be seeing now, increasing like it's unlikely that like, we're going to be seeing anything similar to it.

I can give you a little bit of a parallel, like maybe less, you know, like with the internet revolution that was happening in the 90s and the 20 tens, we saw some growth, but nothing like what we're seeing over here, like, you know, like, and in that revolution, like, think about Google and Meta.

They were growing like maybe 13 times in four years.

Now, OpenAI has grown 13 times in two years.

Right?

So like, you know, like what we're seeing is really unprecedented growth.

Absolutely.

Alberto, we have more questions for you, but we'll get to them on our YouTube channel after this program.

We thank you so much for your insights this evening.

Some really great information to work with there.

Thank you.

Absolutely.

And years after state lawmakers approved tax breaks to attract tech companies to Pennsylvania, dozens of data centers have been proposed across the Commonwealth.

Now, Pennsylvania's elected officials are considering guardrails to ensure the integrity of the state's power grid while still welcoming emerging technologies.

Reporter Tom Schwartz has more on the governor's latest address.

Tom.

Thanks, Brittany.

Well, state representatives and senators have been kicking around proposals for months.

Governor Josh Shapiro attempted to focus the conversation during his budget address earlier this month.

I know Pennsylvanians have real concerns about these data centers and the impact they could have on our communities are utility bills and our environment.

And so do I. So today I'm announcing grid the governor's responsible infrastructure Development Standards, developed by my administration, in consultation with the community, to hold data center developers accountable to strict standards if they want our full support.

The grid plan would require tech companies to generate their own power to fuel their data centers.

Without new power sources in place.

The existing electric grid wouldn't be able to meet demand.

Shapiro's outline would also require that developers be transparent about the data center projects and be mindful of the environment.

Water conservation will be of particular importance, given how data centers often rely on water to keep servers cool.

Finally, the grid plan would require that companies train and hire Pennsylvanians for the jobs they create and partner with host communities.

I know everyone in this room wants to see our economy grow and create more jobs and more opportunity, but I also recognize this is unchartered territory.

So let's come together, codify these principles and take advantage of this opportunity.

We can play a leading role in winning the battle for AI supremacy, but we have to do it in a way that puts the good people of Pennsylvania first.

Getting anything through the divided General Assembly is never a given, but there's signs the Democratic controlled House and the Republican controlled Senate have some common ground on data centers.

Last week, Senate Majority Leader Joe Pittman told me that Republicans agree that tech companies need to supply their own power at Republicans insistence.

Last year, Shapiro pulled out of a cap and invest program among northeastern states called Reggie that will allow the state to take on an all of the above approach to powering the AI boom, according to Pittman.

Still, a handful of lawmakers are questioning if the benefits of data centers are worth the cost.

The Shapiro administration estimated the state will have given away $2 billion in data center tax incentives.

Spotlight PA reported this month.

Over to you, Brittany.

Thanks, Tom.

And the model for private energy agreements already exists in Pennsylvania.

The Three Mile Island nuclear plant is scheduled to go back online next year to power Microsoft data centers.

Amazon has also inked a 20 year contract with a nuclear power plant in Luzerne County to power a data center, its building next door.

That deal calls for expanding the plant to accommodate growing energy needs, as those needs grow, lawmakers are racing to put legislation in place to regulate the industry and its growth.

Joining us now is State Representative Danielle Fraley, who serves Chester County and is a member of the Environmental Resources and Energy Committee.

Thank you so much for joining us for having me.

Absolutely.

So this is the legislative part.

What are we seeing in terms of legislation being introduced on the state level to help data centers grow here and to make sure we're protecting our neighborhoods?

So we're seeing the beginning of the movement in the conversation and in the house, and then it will go to the Senate.

There are two specific bills that are on the move right now.

One of them has passed out of the Energy Committee and is scheduled to come to the floor, probably in the next few weeks.

House Bill 18 eight 1834.

Is a bill that would address cost shifting.

So the primary focus of this bill is to ensure that we encourage data centers to bring their own energy, and that the cost of the transmission and the distribution and plugging into the grid for that energy doesn't get shifted to the consumer.

Currently, the way our markets work.

As Alberto alluded to within the PJM market, all consumers share the cost of all infrastructure upgrades.

And so one of the biggest concerns we have, we're already seeing the impact of data centers in the capacity markets, because capacity markets are designed to plan for the future.

So all of these proposed data centers are weighed in to that capacity market now.

And that's why we've seen recent increases in our energy prices.

And so we're trying to respond to that by constraining those cost shifts from consumers, all consumers, and making sure that those costs stay with the data centers.

And that's been our first and primary focus in the legislature.

And then the other bill that's on the move is House Bill 2151.

And that one is designed to help local municipalities by directing the Department of Community and Economic Development to create a model ordinance.

I can tell you that this week alone, I had coffee with two different township supervisors from two different municipalities in my district who are both concerned about this issue, who both municipalities are working on ordinances.

And one of those municipalities showed me eight different model ordinances that they've been comparing and contrasting to come up with their plan and so, House Bill 2151 would really encourage a collaborative conversation to get all of these municipalities started and give them the tools so that they can create the most important thing, a legally defensible ordinance, an ordinance that they can uphold and that they can defend in court.

We have a viewer question from you and Cheryl's in our audience tonight, and she wants to know, how do we hold these data centers accountable for their power use and their water use, and making sure that the burden doesn't fall on the taxpayer?

So I think that that's the answer to that question is twofold.

At the state level, we really have a responsibility for the energy usage and the water usage from the perspective of utilities.

And so our public Utility Commission allows for the increasing of rates.

They they kind of manage cost shifting and how costs are allocated.

And so at the state level, we have a very big responsibility to work with our PUC to ensure that those costs are not shifting to consumers.

And then at the local municipal level, they have a lot of power when it comes to land use and zoning.

And they also have the opportunity through land use and zoning to implement performance standards.

And those performance standards can be really high for your community to ensure that your resources locally and your assets locally are protected.

And so that's why these ordinances at the local level are so important.

And active community engagement at the local level is incredibly important.

Thank you for answering that question for us.

Now you're on the Environmental Resources and Energy Committee, and so I have to ask about some of our environmental resources.

How what's at stake here when it comes to our environment around us and how do we protect that.

So we've talked a lot about energy usage.

These the hyperscale data centers have very, very large energy usage demands.

And so, what does that mean.

That means higher emissions.

That means potentially more noise and more impacts to groundwater.

We also are up against some serious water usage issues.

And so how do we protect our natural resources from the perspective of groundwater?

And how do we protect our natural resources from the perspective of energy and ensuring that clean air, pure water, we in Pennsylvania are one of the few states in the nation who have a constitutional amendment that protects clean air and pure water for all Pennsylvanians.

And so we have a constitutional duty to do that in the face of this.

Sure.

So how can the PUC protect residents?

And they're the rate paying and in Pennsylvania and absorbing those additional costs, how do we protect folks from from bearing that cost?

Yeah.

So House Bill 1834, aims to create a, separate tariff that would basically put these data centers in their own category.

These we call them large load users.

And so, users that have a megawatt usage over a certain threshold, which is what we're determining now, would then kind of get put into their own area of rate making.

And so those costs would stay within that kind of container that, that we're aiming to create.

And then we would put the everyday user, the, the, you know, small commercial user, the residential user would stay in their own tariff and therefore, the rate making for those large, large load users, we're hoping that those costs stay with them.

And so that's the goal.

We are working through the details of that as we speak.

Spent multiple hours on the phone today actually talking about it.

Sure.

Are incentives for those data centers as hyperscale data centers, part of that, to make sure that they're not doing that, putting that cost on the utility payer.

So that's part of the discussion for of course.

And and to what level do we need to have carrots and sticks?

Right.

We heard about that a little bit earlier.

You know, what what do we need to require just because we need to require it and what can we how can we utilize incentives to encourage these data centers and these corporations to come in and be good neighbors and, do what's right for our communities?

Sure.

What lessons have we learned from past large infrastructure infrastructure here in the state?

What have we learned from that that we can use moving forward as we're building this legislation?

So one of the biggest, drivers for me coming into office was the Mariner East pipeline expansion project that crossed 350 miles of Pennsylvania.

That project is 50ft from my backyard.

And so I have a lot of experience with how these large infrastructure projects impact communities.

We have a few really important lessons we've learned.

One is that if you don't get ahead of this with zoning and with ordinances, you have a lot less control over what happens in your backyards.

And so there has been a lot of debate about whether we should be doing model ordinances at the state level.

Yes, we should, because we need to get ahead of the concerns and give these municipalities tools that they can use that are legally defensible in court so that they can set the ground rules and enforce the ground rules upfront before these projects are in our community.

We've also learned about emergency services.

A lot of these projects that have happened across our, our Commonwealth have had no impact fees that that, fund our emergency services.

And so across Pennsylvania, most of our fire and EMS mostly fire, but our fire departments are volunteer based and volunteer based.

Fire departments are not going to have the capacity to respond to hyperscale data center emergencies.

And so we have a responsibility to ensure that we are creating impacts along with these projects that will support the local municipality and providing emergency services for those locations.

That's something we haven't done in the past or another sector of this.

Right.

Another piece of this how it all plays in.

We have a question from Dan.

He's from South Whitehall.

He mentioned the hyperscale facility that's being put across the street from Parkland High School here in the Lehigh Valley, and he wants to know if noise, diesel fumes or vibration interfere with learning.

What resources would South Whitehall or the school have at, or what should they have in place before this gets built?

So this is where a local municipality really comes into play.

They have a lot of power through their local land use and zoning powers to create performance standards and so they can have noise decibel standards at the property line of that, that data center campus and can compared to the proximity of the school.

And they can have requirements for that.

And that's why these local ordinances are so important, because they do have a lot of power to set those standards upfront, and to require those companies to prove that they can meet the standards, whether that's vibration, whether that's noise, whether that's, controlling their emissions.

Sure.

A lot of questions coming in from our viewers from South Whitehall Township, because there is this, this massive hyperscale data center being proposed there.

We have Julie asking, when does the public get to weigh in?

When is a good time for them to weigh in?

Is it too late at this point, even after it's been proposed?

Absolutely not.

The most important thing about being a member of a community is being an empowered member of a community.

And every day is the day to weigh in.

So we all have a responsibility to help shape our neighborhoods, to help shape our communities.

And your local Board of supervisors meets every month.

I encourage people to, at a minimum, read the agenda, know what's happening in your local community, and be weighing in.

Talk to your supervisors about what you're concerned about, what you want to see on a regular basis, not when just when there's an emergency happening.

But of course, continuing to be a part of the conversation.

Every step of the way, from the very beginning to the very end is critically important.

And your local municipality is where so much of this power is held.

And so I highly encourage folks to get out there, get into your municipal meetings, make sure you know what's going on in your communities, be talking to your township supervisors.

Be involved in your community.

I can tell you that I met with one of my local supervisors yesterday, and they're looking for members of their planning commission.

You can volunteer to be a part of your planning commission, your local, environmental resources committee.

You can be a part of your local zoning board.

There's many, many ways to be a part of your municipal government and have a say in all of these conversations, are you hearing from your constituents down in Chester County right now about these data centers?

Is your phone ringing off the hook as well?

Yes.

Yeah, because we saw a huge turnout in South Whitehall Township when it had the zoning board meeting in Upper Macungie when they had it.

And people are turning out, they want to talk about this.

We have another question from Stacey.

She's from Bethlehem, and she says, what practical steps can we take to show opposition or slow or prevent data centers in our region?

They seem like they're at an inevitable at this point.

Everybody likes that.

You know, that easiness that I it comes with I but they need to go somewhere.

How do they slow it.

So I think the most important thing, is that we, we all can be really, active online.

But oftentimes that doesn't translate into being active in your community in real life.

And so it's really important to, I think, step out of the internet space and step into your community space and really have those relationships with your local municipal leaders and make sure that they understand what your concerns are.

I think it's also really important to make sure that our arguments are based on truth and fact, and so making sure that we're not, just, you know, clicking an action alert or repeating and copying and pasting, but making sure we understand the implications of what we're asking for, because sometimes I will say I'll get the same email or two different emails advocating for two different things, but from the same person on the same day.

And so like really educating yourself and understanding what you're asking for is super, super important to people taking you seriously.

And so there's lots of great resources out there to understand, understand these issues and getting involved in your local community in person, not just online, is critically important.

Sure, sure.

Some great advice for the folks who are, constituents in not only Chester County, but throughout the Lehigh Valley as well.

I want to thank you, Danielle.

So much for joining this conversation.

And as I said, we're going to continue this online and ask some more questions.

In the meantime, as Pennsylvania and regions like ours consider the future of data centers, one thing is clear these decisions will have lasting impacts, both good and bad, on our land, resources and quality of life.

Thank you to our panelists and to our viewers for joining us for this important community conversation.

Those who would like to continue this discussion can join us after this broadcast over on the PBS 39 YouTube page, where we will continue to address your questions from all of us here at Lehigh Valley Public Media.

I'm Brittany Sweeney.

Have a good night.