Welcome to Counter Culture, a talk show normally in a diner.

- Your body temperature is normal.

- On tonight's show, I welcome author and journalist Maurice Chammah.

- I thought I could try to tell a national story through the lens of lawyers and death row prisoners and family members in Texas.

- And the proprietor of Fergie's Pub in Philly, Fergus Carey.

- A bartender makes the bar.

The bartender should be like a great friend but you can leave him behind.

You can leave him at the bar but he's your great friend when you're there.

- And singer-songwriter Sharon Little.

- I'm influenced a lot by jazzy songs and country.

And what I sing, I mean it.

- All right here on Counter Culture.

Mm!

Hi, folks, I'm your host, Grover Silcox, coming to you from the Lehigh Valley Public Media Center while we wait for the go ahead to return to our original home at Daddypops diner in little old Hatboro, PA. - And actually might it be important in this context to just say a little bit about sentencing.

The sentences tend to be much, much shorter in Germany than they do in the US.

- My first guest is a writer who's penned articles for The Atlantic, The New Yorker and The New York Times.

He's also the author of a new book about the death penalty called Let the Lord Sort Them - The Rise and Fall of the Death Penalty.

He's with us today to talk about his book and his work as a staff writer for The Marshall Project, a nonprofit news organization which focuses on the criminal justice system.

Please welcome Maurice Chammah to Counter Culture.

Maurice, welcome.

- Hi.

Thank you so much for having me.

Great to be here.

- Yes, I just finished your book, and I must say, in the beginning of your book you talk about how there's so many dimensions to this subject.

And that every time you think you've covered one, there's four or five and six others that come rolling in, and I found that totally to be true as I went through your book.

What led you to write a book specifically about capital punishment?

- Even before I got into journalism, when I was much younger, sort of figuring out what I wanted to do with my life, I got a job at a little nonprofit in Austin, Texas that was called the Texas After Violence Project.

And the idea was that we were building an archive of oral histories around the death penalty in Texas.

And so I would drive throughout the state and interview prosecutors, family members of people who had been executed, family members of people who had been murdered in death penalty cases.

And through these interviews realized just sort of how beside the point the abstractions were, because it was actually a system of people who were all touched by this public policy.

And so, as I got into journalism, I was having more of these conversations, reporting on individual cases, and I started to realize that I had a kind of zoomed-out, wider understanding of the Texas death penalty that I could try to capture through a book that sort of aimed to capture the three-dimensional quality of this punishment system.

- Was it in 1972 that the Supreme Court ruled that the death penalty violated the Constitution?

So things really came to an abrupt halt.

- That's right.

In the 1960s, as a country, we actually turned away from the death penalty entirely, and this counterintuitively set off a tremendous backlash.

And so many states went and tried to write new laws to get capital punishment back on the books.

Pennsylvania, Texas, Ohio.

It's really a national story.

I decided to focus the book on Texas because, over the course of the next 40 years, Texas became the real epicenter of that story.

More executions, more death sentences, a bigger death row, almost a cultural attachment to the death penalty that I think transcended what you see in other states.

But my hope was that there's a sense in which Texas is almost like a symbolic heart of America.

It's a place where we look to for a lot of our political dynamics, whether it's a certain conservatism, a certain populism.

And so I thought I could try to tell a national story through the lens of lawyers and death row prisoners and family members in Texas.

- You talk about how a murder is a very physical and intimate thing.

And then, when it goes to court, the defense attorneys and the prosecutors give it words.

I found myself going through mixed emotions.

On one hand, I would be like, you know, don't send this person to death.

And then in the next instance, after learning about the murder and the details, the grisly details, you're then like, oh, this person deserves it!

- I had felt in the past like a lot of books about the death penalty that I had read could have came from a more sort of activist position of opposing the death penalty.

And they didn't sort of address what the death penalty purports to do for people.

Right?

I mean, it was politically popular.

It was culturally popular.

But then at a very specific level, you had prosecutors and law enforcement who felt that, in seeking the death penalty and overseeing an execution, they were really providing a service to the family members of victims of just unspeakably terrible crimes.

And one of the main threads of the entire book is the story of the career of a woman named Elsa Alcala, was a prosecutor in Houston who sent numerous men to death row, but then became a judge and kind of was able to see dozens and dozens of cases rather than just the specific ones she was prosecuting.

And she came to question the entire system and whether it was doing a good job of weeding out the worst of the worst.

But I also could see in her judicial opinions a sort of rising sympathy for the people who had committed these crimes that she had lacked as a prosecutor.

And I felt that her career, her sort of mental journey, would be one that readers could kind of identify with and that kind of tracked the larger story of how we came to feel like the death penalty was justice.

And now are coming sort of as a society to question whether that's the case.

- It's so interesting that, like in the courtroom, the prosecutors will use the Bible for their side and the defense will use the Bible for their side.

- There's almost a kind of perennial argument about the death penalty in which both sides have an incredible amount of sort of evidence on their side, in terms of on the sort of morally important sort of foundational texts in our society, like the Bible.

But the Bible speaks in both directions, depending on where you look.

And the executioners found solace in the Bible as they went about their work, but also some of the most fervent anti-death penalty activists found thou shalt not kill among the commandments as the sort of basis of their work.

So I found that our culture overall is sort of ambivalent about the death penalty.

That we, even when something like 60% of Americans say they support it in recent years, you also see that maybe that support is ambivalent or there's a lot more to it than just a simple yes or no question.

Because when you're confronted with the facts of an actual case and you wrestle with does this person deserve mercy or not?

Are they the worst of the worst?

These sort of moral things that can seem very clear cut start to break down and you kind of have to wrestle with individual human lives, which, as we know from our own lives, are endlessly complex.

- I think it was the Supreme Court that ruled that there are certain mitigating circumstances, such as the individual should be psychologically capable of understanding the crime.

And then they came up with that, instead of either capital punishment or life in prison, the third option is life without parole.

- It was only later in the '80s, '90s, and 2005 in Texas, one of the last states to do it, that legislators came up with the idea of life without parole.

Which for I think a lot of prisoners and advocates is in their minds as bad as a death sentence, because it's the rest of your life, you're going to die in prison.

And, unlike in a death penalty case, you actually don't have a right to a lawyer, whereas people who are facing execution, they're allowed to have a lawyer who's looking into their case very deeply.

And so if they're innocent or some gross violation of their constitutional rights took place at trial, there's someone whose job it is to figure that out.

That does not happen if you're sentenced to life without parole.

And at this point, we sentence far more people to life without parole than we ever sentence to death.

And so I think part of the point of the book is, first of all, to look at what caused juries to see people in a merciful way.

I think a lot of those lessons about the mental illnesses that people have, the trauma they faced as children, the addictions and brain injuries and other sorts of horrors that shaped their life are going to be necessary things to understand as we look to the future and think about whether even life without parole sentences are just, and whether we want that many people in prison forever, because that is how you get what we call mass incarceration.

That is how you get prisons with millions and millions of people in them at great cost to taxpayers and at a great kind of moral cost to society.

So I wanted the book to kind of inform these larger conversations about criminal justice, even just beyond the death penalty.

- Well, we could go on and on.

This is a very complex subject.

But thanks so much for joining us on Counter Culture to share your insights, Maurice.

- Thank you so much for having me.

Really great to be here.

- You're welcome.

Maurice Chammah, a writer and journalist whose work will make you think, maybe even stop and think about your own perceptions of capital punishment and other life and death issues.

My next guest once said, "If my pub is the worst beer bar in Philly, can you imagine "how good the others are?"

His way, of course, of saying what a great town Philadelphia is for pints and pubs.

Came to America from Ireland and brought his love of music and good company with him, and that's the kind of friendly atmosphere you'll find at his Irish pub tucked away on little old Sansom Street.

Now a Philly landmark going on 27 years.

please welcome the proprietor of Fergie's Pub, the one and only Fergus Carey.

Fergus, how are you?

- I'm great, Grover.

How are you, sir?

- I'm great.

I can't tell you how much I long for a pint in the pub atmosphere.

- Oh, me too.

Me too.

And everybody else we know.

You know, it's going on too long now, right?

- It certainly is.

So you were...what part of Ireland were you born in?

Where are you from?

- I was I was born and raised in Dublin and I came here at the age of 24.

In 1987, Ireland was a pretty stark economic place.

Unemployment was like 25% and most, a lot of, people were leaving, you know?

They were going to Australia, England, the United States.

And then I just decided one day I had to make a move, and a few weeks later I was in Houston, Texas.

Hated it.

And a few weeks after that I was in Philadelphia and I got myself a job as a busboy and a bicycle and I've been here ever since.

- Wow.

- Must be...33 years or so.

- Wow.

What a story.

You had quite a few gigs working bars before you became a proprietor yourself.

- I did.

And the main one for five years before we opened Fergie's, I bartended in a place called McGlinchey's on 15th and Locust.

The cheapest bar in Center City and it's temporarily closed at the moment also, unfortunately.

But hopefully we'll open up again.

But that was a great launching pad for me.

I got to meet everybody and serve everybody.

- It seems that America could learn a lot from Ireland with their pubs because they really seem like the hub of the community.

- I guess in Ireland we are very comfortable with the pub.

To me, it is, of course, selfish, right?

I wanted a pub that I liked, that had my music, that had Guinness on tap and the bottle of Sierra Nevada pale ale and a few Belgians, and I no TV and maybe we could put on plays upstairs and music and all types of things.

So I think it was a very selfish thing.

I've gone off track of course... - That's OK!

- But you have to be comfortable with it and know it.

It was just like the pint of Guinness too.

We knew what a pint of Guinness should look and taste like, so we could create that.

We could bill that for you or something.

So Guinness is one of our big sellers here, of course.

- Of course.

But, yeah, I was like... And then just like wanting to be in it and wanting to be a good host, I think, is a big key to it all, too.

I think about bartenders all the time.

Yeah, a bartender makes the bar.

The bartender should be like a great friend.

When you go into the bar, he's your great friend.

But you can leave him behind, you can leave him at the bar.

But he's your great friend when you're there.

- Fergie's is where the old Hoffman House used to be, which was a German restaurant in its heyday.

- Yes, it was.

I believe the Hoffman House closed in 1990 and we opened in 1994.

I saw it and I was like, oh, my gosh, look at this beautiful wood, look at this beautiful bar.

And it was sitting here empty and it was, it was a deal because nobody wanted to come onto this street.

On opening night, we had a line around the block to get in.

It seemed to be the first new place to open in years.

- Right.

- So there was just a lot of love went into it, a lot of hard work.

And then, of course, there's the element of luck all the time, right?

- Oh, yeah.

Luck does play part of it.

The luck of the Irish.

In your case, it was working for you there.

- There you go!

We're back to that.

- So when did you start with music at Fergie's?

Because Fergie's is well known for its music on the second floor.

- Yeah.

We started out pretty immediately, it was open space, no stage.

It took us like ten years to put in a stage, and we... What do you call it?

We started as soon as that, and then we started doing traditional Irish music sessions.

And actually we have... One is a traditional Irish music session every Saturday afternoon.

Even when we're closed, they come in and they video it, or they Zoom it, or whatever you call it.

Stream it.

So the Irish music session, and that's been...like this gang have been doing it for like 17 years at this stage.

A fellow called Darin Kelly, a local musician.

It's just a great community and great support.

So, yeah, shout out to Darin and crew.

- I was going to say, I read that some folks sort of chipped in to support you during this pandemic, support the pub.

- Yeah.

In November...

I mean, we jumped through all the hoops and got grants and loans and then and then we were open.

But, you know, the weather started getting cold.

And I just realized, hey, if we don't get money in this week, we have no payroll for next week.

No rent.

So we put up a Go Fund Me and we set it up, I think, $15,000, and in 24 hours we had $30,000.

And we finished at around $70,000.

And that's the money that I'm spending now to reopen.

So it was really...

The community gave back.

And I mean, we've been giving...

I'm very much involved in theater and music.

And then so everybody started, everyone was giving back.

You know, it was really, really sweet and beautiful.

And was totally chuffed, as we'd say.

- Right, right.

- One of the good things about all this lockdown and the indoor dining ban is that all our restaurants went out into the street during the summer, and then the camaraderie between all the restaurant workers was so much fun.

You know, we all took care of each other and helped each other and fed each other.

You know, it was really, really sweet.

I understand, of all the drinks you serve, your favorite drink is coffee.

Is that still true?

I do drink a ton of coffee, but don't make me out to be no saint or anything now.

I do like a pint of the black stuff.

I love a pint of Guinness or a bottle of Sierra Nevada.

I'm no angel either.

You never know what's in the water.

- Have any big-name personalities, I'm sure they have, filtered in and out of Fergie's over the years?

- I don't care much for... We're the personalities.

But, you know, I guess the Pogues, Shane...

The Pogues were here several times and Shane MacGowan fell asleep on the bar.

And I think there were some actors too, like Paul Rudd and stuff, but... Oh, yeah, and some of the Irish big actors.

Ciaran Hinds was in too.

But come for our regulars.

Come for you, come for me, you know?

- I think what you're saying is, everyone's treated the same when they come to Fergie's.

- Yes.

- It's a watering hole for everybody.

- Yes, it is.

Yes, it is.

- Well, good luck.

I hope you...

Wish you the best.

- You got it.

The new Roaring Twenties.

Let's have it!

- Thank you so much, Fergie - Bye, Grover.

Thank you.

Bye, everybody.

- Bye-bye.

Fergus Carey, the Irishman who created a little bit of Ireland in the center of Philadelphia.

My next guest went from serving tables as a waitress in Philadelphia to opening as a singer-songwriter for major rock stars such as Robert Platt, Chris Isaak, T Bone Burnett and others.

You might have heard her music on one of your favorite TV shows or one of her albums.

Quote, NPR.

Quote, "Though she might be called an overnight sensation, "she's been honing her bluesy, jazzy style for years."

She's been interviewed by the Philadelphia Inquirer, Rolling Stone, USA Today and Billboard magazine.

Now it's my turn.

Please welcome singer-songwriter Sharon Little!

- Hi.

- Hi, Sharon.

We finally connected.

We were having some technical issues there but, hey, all as well.

- Yes.

Well, this is the new normal, right?

- It IS the new normal.

That's right.

I love your music, by the way.

I've become a fan.

♪ Is this the way?

- You definitely have your own signature style.

I love a singer who takes authority, and you do that.

You can feel that.

How would you describe your style?

- You know, that's a question that I've struggled with I feel like for a while.

It's...

I never really know what to say.

I basically, I guess I would just say that, when I feel it, it's heartfelt.

You know?

I'm influenced a lot by jazzy songs and country and, you know, basically anyone who really feels the song, you know, you can tell, I guess, the difference when you're listening, whether or not they mean it.

And I guess that's what it is.

When I sing, I mean it.

- Where were you born and raised and how did you come to where you are now?

- I was raised in North Wales.

Actually, I was... My house, my parents' house is one street away from Hall & Oates.

I can't remember which one.

And I got to meet them once because I worked with T-Bone Wolk, who sadly passed away.

But I worked with him for a little bit and he got me backstage at a Hall and Oates concert, and it was really fun.

So, I mean, you know, I was born in North Wales.

And I've been singing, you know, I've been serving tables and singing because that's what I love and that's what I was born to do.

I just kept going until stuff started happening.

And do you play the guitar, I take it?

- Yes.

Yes.

I mostly write on the guitar.

I'm not...I wouldn't consider myself a guitarist.

I'm not like musical in that sense.

But I write my music on the guitar and actually my partner, Tim, he's an amazing guitarist.

He's also an amazing everything.

He plays like every instrument.

I don't know if you've ever...

If you've seen any of our favorite Friday covers that we do, Tim's usually playing all the instruments.

- Wow.

♪ I'll stop the word and melt with you ♪ - And so I write it, I give it to him, he helps me like kind of sculpt into... because he went to music school and, you know, he knows more of the technical side of music than I do.

- Right.

- I definitely couldn't do as much as I do without him.

And I feel like I feel like it's vice versa.

I hope!

- Right.

How did you go from waitressing tables to, like, opening for Robert Plant or Chris Isaak?

- So I guess it was like 2006.

I met this this awesome, talented guy, Scott Sacks, and he helped kind of guide me.

It really gave me a sense of direction.

And he had already won a Grammy for Faith Hill and Tim McGraw, Like We Never Loved At All.

And he was in the business and he had a band that was signed with RCA and he kind of already had a lot of stuff going on in Hollywood.

So he introduced me to a whole bunch of people.

We went on tour with Bob Snider.

You know, that was the first tour I ever went on, which I was like the tour manager for that, which is...!

It just kind of trickles down and we caught the attention of CBS Records.

- Oh, yeah?

- And from there, CBS Records, the president, Larry Jenkins, was the manager for T Bone Burnett.

And he asked T Bone and he was like, would you be interested in having this woman who we just signed be the opening act for your tour with Robert Plant and Alison Krauss?

And so they all had to, like, agree.

So they submitted my music to them and they all liked it, and they said sure.

- And you've said how much that experience really helped you?

- It was an amazing experience.

It was absolutely...

I feel so lucky.

You know, I mean, it literally is like one in a million situation.

It confirmed that that was what I was supposed to be doing.

- Do you have albums...?

You have some albums out, right?

- We're releasing two EPs in one.

So it's a book that has our one EP which is Hole In My Heart and the other one, which is Another Galaxy.

We've released a couple of the songs from both already on all platforms - Spotify, you know, iTunes, all of that.

But, yeah, so we're really excited because this is...

The last release date I think is in.

June.

We're doing a slow release, so we already have a whole bunch... Because this pandemic is so interesting, you know, for labels to figure out how to actually promote and release.

And, you know, there's just so much like, you know, you turn on the news and there's something else happening.

It's like, whoa, OK, we cannot release it today!

- And some of your music has been used on TV.

I mentioned that in the introduction.

I guess through CBS Records - like NCIS is one of them?

- Yeah.

So CBS was extremely helpful with getting my music into TV, obviously, for obvious reasons, cos it's CBS television.

And, yeah, I mean, my fan base was, you know, it just grew because of that.

And I still have people that are fans that comment because of the Robert Plant tour and because of The Cleaner and NCIS.

I mean, I was on so many different shows.

- Right.

They used your music, but in certain episodes you actually were on singing, right?

- Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I was on The Cleaner.

♪ Gonna follow ♪ Follow it down And that was also the theme.

I wrote the theme song for their show, and then I was also in an episode.

It was like an Ally McBeal experience.

- Where do you see yourself going from here?

- I'm just going to keep going.

Just going to keep moving forward.

I worked with this guy, Don Was.

I mean, he's huge.

Don Was from Was Not Was.

I think he's the president of Blue Note Records right now.

He's just legendary in the music business.

But he said to me, he said, no matter what you do, don't stop.

Just keep going.

And something will happen.

So it's basically, I'm just going forward, I'm moving forward.

I'm trying to like figure out what direction.

If it were up to me, I would be on the road touring in clubs right now.

But that's not a possibility.

- And of course you will be once this pandemic goes away.

- Exactly, yeah.

I definitely will be.

But for right now, we're just moving forward, writing music.

We're doing our favorite Friday covers.

On my YouTube channel, I have every Friday we release a cover song.

So you should check it out.

- I will.

I will.

Absolutely.

Well, thank you so much for sharing your time, your talents and your experiences with us here on Counter Culture.

- Thank you.

Thank you so much for having me.

- You're welcome.

Sharon Little - her name might be little, but her musical talents are humongous.

Well, that's all for this episode.

I want to thank my guests - journalist Maurice Chammah, singer-songwriter Sharon Little and the from Fergie's Pub, Fergus Carey.

And thank you for stopping by.

Don't forget to check in with us next week for more amazing guests and great conversation right here at the counter.

Now stay tuned for More Than Money with Gene Dickison.