Welcome to Counter Culture, a talk show normally in a diner.

- Your body temperature is normal.

- Tonight I am joined by three very special guests, co-host of Good Day Philadelphia, Mike Jerrick.

- It's a news program with a giant ribbon of personality running through it.

- Director of Northampton Community Colleges culinary arts program, chef Francine Marz.

- We have to remind them that they're still learning and that they're going to be learning their whole entire lives.

- And internationally renowned poet and author David Whyte.

- Poetry is the art of overhearing yourself say things you didn't necessarily want to hear.

- All right here on Counter Culture.

Welcome to Counter Culture, a talk show coming to you direct from our studio kitchen at PBS39 in the Lehigh Valley.

Hi, folks.

I'm your host, Grover Silcox.

Tonight's show features what it takes to be a great TV host, what it takes to be a great chef and what it takes to be a great poet.

- Yeah, we've been doing this 25 years and I'm tired!

- We got to keep going!

- Happy birthday.

Happy anniversary.

- My first guest is an old pal and former colleague.

As the co-host of the popular morning show Good Day Philadelphia on Fox 29, number one in its timeslot alongside his colleague Alex Holley, he's won ten Emmys and served as host and co-host on various television networks, including the Fox Network, CNN, CNBC, HBO, USA Network and even the Sci-Fi Channel.

He's a winsome fellow with a quick wit and a charming, easy manner that endears him to you instantly.

It is a hoot and a pleasure to welcome my old pal Mike Jerrick to Counter Culture.

Hi, Mike, where are you?

You're not on set, are you?

- Grover Silcox!

I am in Key West, Florida.

Sorry I couldn't come to you from my place in Philly, but I got a chance to get away for the first time since 2019, so I took it.

- Oh absolutely.

- Whoohoo!

So, sorry I'm on my phone but hopefully the signal's OK. Now, twice in that intro, Grover, you called me old.

Now is that O-L-D or O-L?

Like, good ol' buddy.

- Yes.

It's O-L.

It's O-L, and I think we're the same age so, you know, we're both, what, 48?

- Exactly, yeah.

Just a lot of sun damage.

- It is.

Yes.

Exactly, exactly.

This is actually a relief map of Guatemala, but we pasted over with all kinds of, you know, whatever.

But in any case, it is so great to have you.

You know, you've been kind enough to invite me on Good Day every once in a while.

Of course, I used to be right there with the whole team, which was hilarious and fun.

I mean, those are the watchwords for Good Day, wouldn't you say?

- The way I put it is it's a news program with a giant ribbon of personality running through it.

- Yes.

♪ Hi-yee!

♪ ♪ Do it now, yeah!

♪ - There you go!

- We have a road map.

We just drive off the road a lot.

- How do you balance that out between...?

Because you do have to present some serious news and yet then turn it off or turn the dimmer switch down or whatever it takes.

- Yeah.

- And then be light and witty, which is natural for you.

- It's never been a problem for me to go from something really tragic or hard news to something lighter, because that's what we all do in life.

The whole key to being, I think, good on the air is just be yourself.

I know it's a cliche, but I'm just being myself, so I can talk about something heavy and then two seconds later crack a joke.

- Right, exactly.

Yeah, it's right.

It's what life really is.

- Yeah.

Don't overthink it.

Like your producers will go, oh, there's a hard turn going up so you have to be careful.

OK, all right.

We'll do it like we'd do it If we were sitting at a table having a conversation.

- The people around you make - big difference.

I mean, to have Alex and the whole troupe.

- The people around me are the key to the show.

My God.

Like Alex, before Alex was Sheinelle Jones, who now works for NBC, but she had a great personality, can do hard news and softer bits.

So we had to find somebody to replace her, and we found the perfect person in Alex.

She just fit in right away.

And you got Sue.

She's the weather person on the show.

- And she's been on our program.

- She told me.

- Did she?

Yeah?

- We have a really good, good hard news reporter in Steve Keeley, who you know very well.

- Oh, yeah.

- But he can be funny, too.

Some of the funniest segments we've ever done.

- Oh, my God.

- Talking about getting off the road.

He made headlines getting knocked off the road by that snowplow.

- There goes a couple of plows demonstrating... ..what I said.

- Any time I bring up his name around the country, they talk about the snowplow, because it's been seen so many times on YouTube or whatever on the internet.

- I think every one of you has a warmth that really comes through, and you're spending some time with people in their living rooms, and people do feel like they know you, right?

- Yeah, you know that from television.

They truly believe that they know me to the point when they see me on the street, it's like they're, before the pandemic, hugging a family member.

- Yes.

- it's really interesting, but why wouldn't they?

Because this face is in their living room or in their kitchen, sometimes in the bedroom.

I can't tell you how many people say that they wake up and I'm the first face they see.

Oh, God!

- How long is the show every day?

- I'm on for four hours.

But the show, it's six hours long.

- And so much of it is spontaneous.

My goodness!

- Oh, yeah.

A lot of it is spontaneous.

Probably at least half of it is, if not more.

- In your career, having been on all these different programs.

I was shocked to find the Sci-Fi Channel.

- Sure, I have a big mouth.

I'm kind of freaky looking, but I'm your host, anyway..

I did that six seasons, and I don't know a thing about science fiction.

So when they would send me to Comic Con or some big sci-fi convention, I had to have a producer standing next to me all the time, because if somebody came up and said, What do you think of the 13th episode of Star Trek?

And I'm like... ..Talk to Wanda here.

I've got to go tape something.

So she'd take over.

That was a very popular show.

And I got to interview some of the most fantastic science fiction writers.

- Wow.

- Of course, I'd have to read up on them before I went to interview them and pretend like I knew what the heck I was talking.

- Right.

Did you have guest interviews that you were like, wow, this is why I love being in this business, because I could actually speak to this person?

- I've never felt that until right now.

- Really?

Wow!

Do I owe you anything?

What was like the best one, the Pope or something?

- I remember interviewing a couple of...probably three times Robin Williams, and we got along very well.

I'd just know who he is or was.

And we had this really serious conversation about...

I was having some problems with depression, and he suggested that I go get professional help.

And so if I get professional help and I get fixed, will I be as off the cuff and funny?

And he goes, oh, no, no.

I thought the same thing.

Go get therapy!

You'll be just fine.

You're not going to lose your sense of humor and your wit.

But I took his advice and got help.

And thank God I did.

- Would you say Carson is one of your influences or who are they?

- I think, growing up...

..I wanted to land somewhere between Johnny Carson and Tom Brokaw, somebody that could do The Today Show...

So I had both those going into my head.

- Right.

- And what's odd is it's exactly where I landed.

- It is!

Yeah.

- I wish Good Day and you 25 more fantastic years, as long as you want to do it.

- Let's do this again.

I loved it.

- You got it, buddy.

Relax and enjoy your week vacation.

- I will do.

By the way, I don't have any pants on.

I'm on vacation.

Well, I'll get up now.

- OK, OK. - Bye, Grover!

- Take care.

Thank you for coming.

Mike Jerrick, a charmer who fills the flat screen, the tube or the google box, whatever you call it, with wit, news, conversation and warmth, which is why people love him, including myself.

When it comes to good taste, my next guest knows her stuff.

She recently was named a 2021 woman of influence in the Lehigh Valley.

She serves as director of the culinary programs at Northampton Community College, where she oversees the students, the faculty and the operation.

She's a graduate of the prestigious culinary program at Johnson and Wales University and she's a certified executive chef.

Let's see what she has cooking these days.

Please welcome executive chef Francine Marz.

Hi, Francine.

How are you?

- I'm wonderful.

And yourself?

- I can't complain.

This isn't our first interview.

I remember interviewing you at Northampton Community College itself.

The college actually has an operating restaurant that folks from the outside can come and avail themselves of.

- Yeah, we have our Hampton Winds restaurant and we're open for lunch and dinner.

We are also opening a grab and go market for the public as well, which will be featuring ice cream and grab and go items, soups and Danishes and breakfast pastries, you name it.

So it's really, really exciting stuff.

- You are making me hungry, I must say!

How do you define executive chef, and in your case, certified executive chef?

What does that mean?

- Woman in power.

No, actually it's jack of all trades, it's leading an entire culinary team.

In my case, it's not only my culinary team and my administrators and my faculty but also the students.

- When you teach, do you teach like a Gordon Ramsay or a Robert Irvine or one of those reality show cooking people?

- You know, we have to be firm but fair.

You know, the students are here to make mistakes.

And, you know, we have to remind them that they're still learning and that they are just in the beginning and they're going to be learning their whole entire lives.

We have them learn from their mistakes.

But, you know, in a gentle way, not in throwing pots and pans or in your face or anything like that.

You know, I've met Gordon Ramsay or have dealt with his team, and he's definitely more show on TV.

He's actually like a giant teddy bear in person.

- So what was it that made you want to become a chef, that made you want to become involved with culinary arts and science?

- It's a funny story.

I was actually going to be a nurse and I fell snow skiing second time down Bunny Hill, and I had to have multiple surgeries on my left knee.

I had torn my ACL.

And this was back in the early nineties.

And so all I would do is watch cooking shows at home.

I was doing a little bit of home schooling so that I could not have to go through high school with crutches and stuff.

And so I watched TV and all I would do is watch the cooking shows.

And I just said one day I'm going to be a chef.

And that was that.

I attended a culinary program at school, which I'm very, very passionate about.

I support our vocational schools in the area and do a lot of judging at the high school level.

From there, I won a culinary scholarship at Johnson and Wales.

I was second place at 18 and actually was 17 years old and won a $25,000 scholarship and it just changed my life.

So culinary has rewarded me in a wide variety of ways and I've been able to travel the country, travel the world and, you know, been able to manage and oversee a program like this one that is amazing.

- Where are you from originally?

- I've lived all over the country, so I've actually moved from Arizona, Phoenix, Arizona to Pennsylvania.

But I work for Disney.

I work for a variety of groups of hotels and just places in the area.

So it's quite an amazing journey that I've had.

- Favorite thing to make?

- I love working with seafood because just, you know, I'm a water baby, and growing up in Long Island, New York, and being able to, you know, go out in the ocean and actually dig for clams and all that good stuff.

So I'm big with shellfish and seafood.

But also being Italian, I love Italian food.

I also trained a lot in South Carolina, in Charleston.

So Charleston and Southern cuisine is, you know, near and dear to my heart.

But I also spent ten years in the South-West, so I love South-Western cuisine, and then traveling to China four times, I love Chinese cuisine, ethnic Chinese cuisine.

- What is it that makes a great chef?

- I was able to work with a lot of celebrity chefs, Emeril Lagasse, Jacques Torres, I mean, just to name a few.

And all of them have a wonderful sense of humor.

They have a passion for being successful and having a drive and grit and perseverance, just seeing them and following them in their careers and just seeing the students, you know, those are the kids that come in after class and will stay or come in on their days off when we don't have school and they'll work extra.

Like, you know, we have an event going on right now.

And so we had some students come in on a day that it was a hybrid day because of, you know, of things going on around us.

And so those students had to...

I call it bonus learning, and it's learning outside of the classroom.

And we know when we have those students that are pushing the envelope that are like, hey, I went home and I made this, I saw this recipe and I made it and they'll bring it in.

Hey, you know, what do you think of this?

It's having that passion, that love and that drive to be successful is really what makes a successful chef.

- So if someone is accepted into the program at Northampton Community College, where do you begin?

- I'll put everything in perspective for people.

So, you know, a lot of people think, oh, it's just a bunch of 18-year-old going to culinary school.

Right?

And that is so far from the truth.

We have students that are everywhere from 17 all the way in their 60s.

Right?

People that are veterans that come back for culinary.

And so we have a variety of ages, which is a phenomenal group of students to teach, because they not only are learning from us but they're learning from each other as well.

So that's one of the biggest misconceptions, that they're just a bunch of 18-year-old kids.

As far as starting out, you know, they you know, they get a role, they get accepted and they get their culinary kit and their uniforms.

And we have orientation for the students.

And then they go through and they take a culinary foundations class, and that's where they start learning just all about the business and the different aspects and what kind of opportunities are out there.

And there's this giant umbrella that culinary falls under of hospitality, which then at that point given even receives more opportunities for culinary.

So, you know, we teach them that and then we go into food costing and labor costing, because you could be a great chef, but if you don't make any money, you're not going to last long.

And then at that point, we start teaching them the basic skills.

And that's everything from how to make a stock to a soup.

You know, today's egg day in class so they're all making hollandaise and they're making eggs and omelets.

And there are students that come in that have some knowledge because they've been working.

So we get everybody caught up to the same point and then we take them and move them from there.

And then the students, when they get to lunch and dinner classes, the restaurant classes, they actually learn about American regional cuisine and global and they rotate through the front of the house.

They have to learn how to, you know, see people and bus tables and how to take orders and, I mean, you name it.

And then they rotate through the back of the house as well.

And also pastry.

- And because you have a working restaurant, they get that real life experience.

- Very much so.

And the public a lot of times forget that it's a student restaurant.

- Your students graduate with a culinary degree.

- Yeah.

So they can either get a certificate or they can get an associates degree.

And the culinary piece itself, they're done within a year.

Sometimes we're on a wait list.

We have a really strong reputation and we have a really strong program here.

We've got a solid group of administrators and faculty and we've got a great reputation.

And we're just, like I said, taking a great program and making it so much better.

- Well, I must say, Francine, it has been a real treat to have you on Counter Culture.

Continued success.

My best to your students and to your terrific program.

- Thank you, Grover.

Great to see you again.

- Same here.

Certified executive chef Francine Marz, a woman of influence with all the ingredients you'd expect from an accomplished culinary expert.

- Whatever you desire of the world, whatever you desire of your children, whatever you desire of the people who work for you or with you, all your world will not happen exactly as you would like it to happen.

- I have been a fan of my next guest and his poetry for many years.

His poems draw on our relationships with each other, our environment and the world at large.

He speaks of life as a great conversation filled with meaning and with, to quote him, questions that have no right to go away.

He chases the muse with indefatigable determination and then shares its promise with all of us through his beautiful, accessible and inspiring words.

It is an honor to welcome David Whyte to the counter.

David, thank you for joining us.

- Very good to be with you, at a distance, of course.

- Of course!

If the world was a perfect place, would we have a poet for president or prime minister, or would we have no poets at all?

- Exactly!

Those were my thoughts.

I mean, you talked about the way that I look at life as a conversation.

- Yes.

- And it is a conversation, actually, that will kill you in the end.

And that's what's so difficult about being here, is that we have the intuition of that disappearance in many of the thresholds that we try to cross in our life, trying to be more here, trying to be more generous, trying to be more of ourselves and trying to create a better world around us.

And so I think poetry tries to...

In fact, poetry does make sense of the heartbreak that every human being goes through.

And whether a poet would become president or not, usually poets wouldn't have the patience for that, because their art form is so consuming and so they would find it a big distraction.

So it'd be very hard to get a poet to become a president.

- Right.

- Although, you know, there are some instances, you know, of, such as Pablo Neruda in Chile becoming a government minister just because his voice had been seen as the clarion call of freedom in that country for so many years before the Allende dictatorship.

- Poetry should change you in some way.

As you say in your poems sometimes... - Yes - ...it asks you to stop what you are doing and stop what you are becoming while you do it.

- You're a good reader of my poetry.

I appreciate that.

- I love your poetry.

- Yeah, that's a pretty fierce line, actually.

I remember stopping... As I said, poetry is the art of overhearing yourself say things you didn't necessarily want to hear.

And when I heard that, I realized, you know, it's not a passive activity to absent yourself from the conversation, to absent yourself from the body that's having that conversation to create life as insulation and distance.

You're actually practicing becoming someone.

And especially in the workplace, you know, we often have a kind of contingent approach where we say, well, I'll be this awful way in the office every day or in my workplace, but when I'm finished, I'll go back to myself.

- Right.

- Or I'll go back to the weekend where I'll be myself.

And to begin with, you can do that.

But after a while, you're spending so much time in the hours of work, and certainly we privilege work more than any other area of life at this moment... - Right.

- ..that there's no one else you're practicing at being more assiduously than those seven or eight hours you are in your work.

And if you're in a leadership position, it's nine, ten hours a day.

So it's not a passive process to practice at being someone.

So I always say, you know, when I'm working with people in the workplace, by the way you are in your booth, you know, now, by the way you are in front of your Zoom, your laptop, by the way you are in your office cubicle, by the way you are in the meeting room, who are you practicing at being?

Do you actually want to become that person you're practicing at?

Who am I practicing at becoming most of the hours of my day?

That's who you become.

- Your poem The Journey... And I love the story behind that, if you would.

- That was written for a friend of mine who was going through the difficulties of divorce and separation and the desolation of that.

Whether or not you are the one who initiated the end of the relationship, it's actually the death of a promise that you once made with someone else.

And I think the physical intuition is that no matter who you meet in the future and no matter what promises you make with others, you will never, ever make that particular form of promise again.

And so even if you do want to leave and it's the best thing for you, there's a process of giving up, of undoing and of grieving.

So I wrote this piece for her.

She was going through this terrible, terrible undoing, but also she was becoming more real as she did it.

But if you're a good friend, the last thing you want to do is go up and say, this is really good for you.

So instead, I wrote this poem for her and it's called The Journey, and it's full of the imagery of the Pacific Northwest, where I make my home at the moment, above the mountains.

The Journey.

Above the mountains, the geese turn into the light again Above the mountains, the geese turn into the light again Painting their black silhouettes on an open sky Above the mountains, the geese turn into the light again Painting their black silhouettes on an open sky Sometimes everything has to be inscribed across the heavens Sometimes everything has to be inscribed across the heavens So you can find the one line already written inside you Sometimes it takes a great sky Sometimes everything has to be written across the heavens So you can find the one line already written inside you Sometimes it takes a great sky To find that first bright and indescribable freedom in your own heart Sometimes with the bones of the black sticks left when the fire has gone out Someone has written something new in the ashes of your life Sometimes with the bones of the black sticks left when the fire has gone out Someone has written something new in the ashes of your life You are not leaving, even as the light fades quickly now You are arriving.

- Oh, that's great.

I must tell you that that poem and parts of it, along with some of the others that you've written, I consider almost like a talisman, you know, that I carry with me when I need it.

- That's why we write 'em, as they say!

But it's interesting the way that even the writer, you know, I will read a poem of my own that I wrote some time ago as if it was written by someone else and as if it is a reminder to my future self.

That poem was written in order to, in a sense, to be the ancestor of my future happiness and to remember the person who began that conversation and the sincerity with which it was begun and the place... that was held in mind, the far horizon when it was written.

- Well, David, I thank you for sharing a little bit of your time with us today.

It's really been quite a pleasure.

- You're very kind and it's been an absolute pleasure to be here.

So thank you very much.

- You're welcome.

David Whyte, a poet who illuminates the rich conversation we are all having in the world if we only take a moment to embrace it.

Well, that's all for this episode, I want to thank my guests, the always delightful co-host of Good Day Philadelphia on Fox 29, Mike Jerrick, woman of influence and executive chef extraordinaire Francine Marz, and prolific poet and author David Whyte.

Thank you for spending time with us.

Don't forget to drop by next week for more terrific guests and great conversation right here at the counter.