- Welcome to Counter Culture, a talk show normally in a diner.

On tonight's show, I am joined by comedian and actor Craig Shoemaker.

- I'm sure you share this, Grover, if you're a comic - we're geeks growing up.

I was 5'1, 92lbs in high school and all the girls would use the F word with me.

You know, the F word?

Friend?

- Radio and TV political commentator Michael Smerconish.

- Those presidential interviews, I think the one that I remember the most was August 2009.

And I conducted President Barack Obama's first live radio interview in the White House.

- And stand-up comic and author Debbie Kasper.

- Everybody finds humor all day long and that's how we survive.

- Yeah.

- That and credit cards.

- All right here on Counter Culture.

Welcome to Counter Culture.

We're coming to you from the Lehigh Valley Public Media Studio B while we wait to return to our original home at Daddy Pop's Diner in Hatboro, PA. - And I have a little five-year-old daughter.

She meets a cat down the street.

She goes, Mommy, I want a cat.

My wife says, Your dad's allergic.

My daughter goes, let's get another dad.

- My first guest goes way back with me to the great stand-up comedy boom of the 1980s.

He went on to be named the funniest male stand-up comic at the American Comedy Awards.

He's also an actor and producer, writer, two-time Emmy Award winner.

Please welcome my old pal, Craig Shoemaker.

Craig, how are you?

- I am fantastic.

I am so upset that I came all this way thinking I was an in studio guest.

I flew to Philadelphia on my dime just to be with you.

And here I am.

I could have been back in California.

- True.

But you sort of helped the economy by doing it.

You know, we always try to think on the positive side, right?

- And I brought the whole family too.

And by the way, thank you for, I guess we've known each other long enough where, you know, my name and can pronounce it.

I usually get "My favorite comic, Craig Schumacher."

- Yeah.

- Listen, folks, you make shoes.

You don't mach shus.

Unless they're Crocs.

Those you can mock all day long.

Know what the holes are for, Grover?

So your self-esteem can slip out.

- That's right.

- I know because I wear them.

I wear them proudly around the house.

- Hey!

- I'm married with a minivan.

- There's nothing left in life.

- That's right.

Yeah.

This is all part and parcel to your Daditude program, right?

- Your bit about being a dad.

- Yes.

It started on Netflix.

Now it's out on Amazon Prime.

And I'm sure if you watch it, I will get probably a nickel.

I'll get a nickel from every 50,000 views.

By the way, if you do see me perform, all my shows are benefit shows and all proceeds go to my ex-wife.

I wanted you to know that I have become a philanthropist.

- I heard.

Yes, you have.

LaughterHeals.org, right?

- It was spawned because one of my best friends from also Philadelphia Northeast High School, Michael Goldberg, we always bonded through laughter, just like you and I did in the eighties.

That was such a lock, a great lock into for life.

And he wrote Cool Runnings.

He wrote Little Giants, and he was diagnosed with brain cancer.

And they said, you have three months to live.

And that was my ha ha moment, as I say, and really did a deep dive into the healing powers of laughter.

How great it is for us.

We certainly need it now.

- It boosts your immune system.

- Absolutely.

Healing endorphins are released when you laugh.

I mean, it's just underappreciated and devalued all the time.

So I did a dive into this.

I have these seminars and workshops at this cancer facility.

And he showed up for all the prescriptions that I offered and he lived 15 years past the three month prognosis.

So laughter really does work and it's the best medicine.

Hey, Grover, we're essential workers.

We're like the court jesters thrown out of the court.

All the cancel culture, everybody, every time you tell a joke, people get upset if it offends them.

It's unbelievable to me.

It's like, look, we're delivering your medicine.

If you don't like that one, then wait for the next joke, right?

Exactly.

Yes, it's our prescription.

So it all started with Barney Fife.

That's what I remember back in Philly in the eighties.

- The comedy clubs.

- That's right, baby.

Oh, yeah.

Hope you enjoyed the bullet.

That's all I got is one.

Sorry about that.

You're going to have to deal with that at a later time.

Then the Love Master hit and then just took over.

I'm the Love Master, baby.

Well, you know how he was developed, as I'm sure you share this, Grover, if you're a comic, we're geeks growing up.

I was 5'1, 92lbs in high school and all the girls would use the F word with me, you know the F word?

Friend?

I was always the friend, and that's when Love Master channeled through.

I'll give the geek a chance baby, yeah.

One night with me, you'll be begging like PBS on a pledge drive.

That's right.

Oh yeah.

- Yeah.

So you were born and raised in Springfield Township, right?

- Montgomery County.

- Started in Mount Airy.

- OK. - You know, Mount Airy, Stenton to Duval and 15th and Shelton.

We were...

I used to think the word evict meant move when I was a kid.

I was like hey mom, the eviction truck is here.

So we lived several places.

I loved growing up in Philadelphia, been in California over 30 years.

- Wow.

- And we're looking now into moving here.

- We might move back.

- Oh, how about that?

Philadelphia always brings back their own after they become successful somewhere else.

- Well, before we were on the air, we're talking about Hollywood Squares.

When I was a kid, I was obsessed with that show.

- Yes.

- And I wanted...

I didn't have a dad, so I used to write letters to Paul Lynde to fix him up with my mother.

So my dream in life was to be the first father and son team on the Hollywood Squares, like he would adopt me and marry my mom.

So I was always picturing...

I'd like Paul Lynde for the win, please.

Take it, son.

It's a sports question.

So...

So here's how life works, Grover.

I ended up on 75 episodes of Hollywood Squares.

Wow.

- Craig Shoemaker.

- Craig Shoemaker.

- Farber's my mother's name.

- Oh, that's nice.

- So we're bonding right now.

- No, you're having an Oedipus complex right now.

During the commercial break, Whoopi would let me sit in the center square with her and she would play Paul Lynde and I would play Paul Lynde's son.

So we had fun.

So dreams come true.

- She was a big fan of your book, if I remember correctly.

- In Hollywood, which is one of the reasons I'm moving back to Philadelphia, most likely, people kept telling me they're phonies, they're the phonies there, and I kept being in denial.

33 years later, I'm here to admit... they are.

So...

But she... Of all the people I've met, I've never seen anyone like Whoopi.

She is a true, beautiful human being who's loyal to friendships, loyal to talent.

She loves talented, talented people in comedy.

And she's the one who got me on Comic Relief and she's the one that got me on Hollywood Squares.

And nobody does that in Los Angeles.

Everybody's out for themselves.

And then she read my book and gave me a nice review.

It's called Love Master'd: A Digital Journey to Love and Happiness.

And it's actually a serious book about getting through...through life, you know, in a different way.

You know, I've been through pain and suffering and stuff like that.

Now, I came out the other side and we wrote this book.

It's actually a book of, a woman reached out to me, a fan from the Delaware Valley.

And I didn't really know her, but something resonated inside of me, you know, as comedians we're empaths.

And I wrote back to her.

And our book is an exchange on private message over a whole year of helping her deal with her acrimonious divorce.

And it has a great ending and it's all time stamped.

And that's what the book is.

It's not really a comedy book.

There's some humor in it, obviously, I couldn't help that.

But a lot of it's about self-transformation and helping people.

I have a class now about it, too.

- Craig, I got to tell you, you went out, you made good.

And now you're trying to help people, you know, heal with laughter.

I think that's terrific.

- What a great place to be.

- Absolutely.

By the way, I love my roots so much, I have a show coming out on Amazon Prime, go to Craig Shoemaker.com, signed up for my mailing list, you'll know - we shot it in Philadelphia.

It's called Wolfpac.

We have five entrepreneurs.

Oh, you showed up!

You were there on the site - I was there, you invited me there.

And it was terrific.

- Yeah, we produced it, we had our screening yesterday here in Philadelphia.

We produced it with the Philadelphia Eagles.

And it is such a great show, especially these times when people need to know how to do business.

Another show coming out on Amazon with Tony Luke.

It's called Comedy Kitchen, where we do a role reversal.

Tony Luke, the famous restaurateur, teaches... - Yes, Tony's Steaks.

- ...comedians how to... - Right.

He teaches comedians how to do a dish for the judges.

I teach famous chefs how to do comedy for the judges.

You know who has it harder, by the way.

- Yeah.

We're going to have to sign off.

I could spend another three days catching up with you.

How would the Love Master sign off?

- Always with the truth.

That's right, baby.

And sometimes the truth hurts.

Oh, yeah.

- Thank you so much, Craig.

Craig Shoemaker, a man who loves comedy, loves making people laugh and loves the roar of the crowd, all of which earned him the title of the Love Master.

- Gridlock is what you get when Washington takes its cues from those with microphones and not the vast majority of the people.

My next guest has been observing and commenting on the political scene and American life in general for more than 30 years on radio and TV.

He's an author, speaker and newspaper columnist.

You might not always agree with him, but you'll want to hear what he has to say.

He's the host of the Michael Smerconish program weekdays at 9am on Sirius XM Potus Channel.

On Saturdays he hosts his own program on CNN.

Please welcome fellow Philly native Michael Smerconish.

Michael, how are you?

Grover, I've been listening to you for longer than you've been listening to me.

- Never forget that.

- Yeah.

You know, you inform folks, you entertain folks.

You keep people listening wherever you're on.

They know they're going to get something to think about.

- Well, I'm seeking to bring good content.

You know, I'm not motivated or guided by ideology.

I don't stop and think, how will this issue play among Republicans or Democrats?

I'm just looking to engage people on a day to day basis with news content.

And so far it's worked.

- You've always been interested in the political scene, right?

- No doubt.

It goes back to my misspent youth in Bucks County, Pennsylvania.

I was very fortunate in that I had unique experiences at an early age.

I was interested in Republican politics.

People my age were not interested in Republican politics.

And so I was fortunate in that responsibility continued to come my way in the course of a variety of campaigns.

And as a result of these unique experiences in the Philadelphia media market, initially television, then radio, I was invited to provide some political commentary.

And I think the ego of it consumed me and I thought I had a skill set that could be of some value.

And so the rest has been my career path.

- Right.

And the first person you voted for when you registered at 18 was your dad.

Right?

You're from Doylestown originally.

- Absolutely true, my father, who was a public school teacher, then guidance counselor, in the spring of 1980 when I was a newly minted Republican voter, decided to run for a vacant seat in the Pennsylvania state legislature.

Dad lost that election, but it was an eye opener for me in a wonderful way.

I was completely smitten with the political process.

Grover, I used to stand at the Acme in Newtown, Pennsylvania.

It has since been razed.

On Saturday afternoons, holding a ruler with my father's name on it.

And they cost us each a nickel and we would hand them out.

So it had my dad's name and the office that he was seeking and I would stand there in chilly weather and just say, please vote for my dad.

- And when you were a teenager, you were determined to meet Ronald Reagan.

President Reagan.

- It's true.

Well, I had to skip school from Central Bucks West on a day in that same spring of 1980 because a friend of mine tipped me off that at 1:50 in the afternoon, on a particular day, about a week before the election, that Ronald Reagan was going to walk inside Esposito's meat market on 9th Street, which, by the way, is still there and doesn't seem to have changed at all.

I can remember...

I can remember being inside at 1:40 and there was no activity.

Meanwhile, Reagan was out on 9th Street working all the food vendors.

And my buddy looked at me and he said, are you sure you have the right instructions?

And I'm looking at this card that says, stand in Esposito's at 1:50.

And lo and behold, in walks the Gipper.

They presented him with his name spelled in sausage.

It was like ten feet long.

And then as soon as they handed Reagan the sausage, we passed back and forth a 110 camera film, Instamatic.

I'll bet you remember those.

And we had our picture taken with the Gipper.

- That's amazing.

Little did you realize at the time that ultimately you would interview how many presidents?

- Like four?

- Several.

I'm losing....

I'm losing...

I'm losing track in a good way.

Yeah.

it's been a nice ride with a lot of fun experiences along the way.

I mean, those presidential interviews, I think the one that I remember the most was August of 20...

I have to get my years straight.

It would have been 2009.

And I conducted President Barack Obama's first live radio interview in the White House, which was a great thrill because it was 30 minutes long.

And, you'll appreciate this given your background in communications and radio, he was willing to take live calls from the audience.

- Wow, that's risky.

- That level of confidence is something that I've seen in all of the politicians who reach a certain plateau.

- Mm hmm.

Just recently, you celebrated 30 years in broadcasting and you put a show revolving around your all your years called, it's a great title... - Things I Wish I Knew Before I Started Talking.

I have to back up the clock two years.

Two years ago, my most recent book came out and it was called Clowns to the Left of Me, Jokers to the Right, American Life in Columns.

And when the book came out, I started going out and speaking to audiences around the country, small theaters, 300 seat theaters comprised of radio listeners.

People had fun.

I had fun.

It was a wonderful experience to meet radio listeners.

So now here came my 30 year anniversary in talk radio, which, by the way, the milestone, the first time on radio was back at 96.5 FM, WWDB.

- Was that the Big Talker?

- We used to say, yeah, THE talk station, which is kind of funny.

So I decided, well, wait a minute.

For 30 years I've been doing this.

I have a lot of stories that I'd like to tell.

And I began putting together a program, as you said, as I said, Things I Wish I Knew Before I Started Talking.

And we put the first two dates on sale.

There were 12 more dates about to be announced across country.

And then came the pandemic.

Money refunded, doubt as to whether I would ever get to do it.

And so, Grover, something told me, you've got to deliver this show and put it on tape.

So I went to the historic Bucks County Playhouse in New Hope, Pennsylvania, rented the theater and in front of 400 empty seats, delivered my presentation and recorded it on tape.

So George Herbert Walker Bush wins the Pennsylvania primary.

My dad lost his, but I was hooked on politics.

Another favorite part of the story is not only were we working in the midst of a pandemic, everybody masked and socially distant, but my favorite part is a boyhood friend of mine who is a television producer and director, his name is Chris Strand, he was the one who came in, directed, filmed and handled all of the production for me.

And when it was completed, we took a sizzle reel to Jeff Zucker, the president of CNN worldwide, and he said to me, I'll put this on television.

I would leave Fox News and walk into 30 Rock and guest host Hardball.

I didn't know whether the risk was higher of me getting shot in the chest or shot in the back.

It's available digitally for people to rent online.

And I'm really excited about that.

I'm not Grover Silcox, but I tried to tell stories about my life and also to work in a very serious message about the political climate.

And I think I achieved that.

But you'll be the judge if you watch it.

By the way, you didn't mention my Lehigh University roots.

I love the Lehigh Valley, so I'm thrilled to be able to reach your audience.

- Well, we're thrilled to have you.

Thanks so much for joining us.

- Thank you.

You too.

- Take care.

Michael Smerconish, a keen observer who I'm confident in saying would agree with Pericles - just because you don't take an interest in politics doesn't mean politics won't take an interest in you.

- Younger men make much better lovers.

You know why?

Because their life stories are much shorter.

- My next guest began her standup comedy career in Philly, but moved on to New York, where she really took off.

A winner of two Emmy nominations, she wrote for Roseanne and The Rosie O'Donnell shows.

She wrote, produced and starred in Without Me, My Show Is Nothing, which won the prestigious Dramalogue Award for Best Written One Woman Show in L.A.

Her latest book, You're Not That Pretty And Other Things My Parents Told Me, which is hilarious, has just hit Amazon and other booksellers.

Please welcome my old friend from the Philly days, Debbie Kasper.

Debbie, how are you?

You survived your childhood!

You survived.

I read your book.

- Oh, thank you.

- I loved it.

- You didn't have to do that!

- You grew up in Cherry Hill, New Jersey, right?

- Yes, I did.

Or I didn't grow up there, I should say.

- Yeah.

Your latest book, You're Not That Pretty And Other Things My Parents Told Me, really describes the whole family and the growing up in the 60s and 70s and on.

And your mom and dad, I kind of related because my father was, he smoked cigarettes, then he went on to cigars.

But you be going on a family vacation, like you went to Florida, and all the windows would be up.

My mother would blow the smoke against the window, the closed window and it would come back and envelop her again and then waft into the back seat.

So we were all basically smoking.

We just didn't all have cigarettes.

My mother calls me up last week, leaves this message on my answering machine.

Your mother played a big role in your one person shows, right?

I mean, she became like a very popular character.

- My standup, she was... she made it to my standup.

my one person shows my book.

She's a very big star because she was really witty, really funny, really unhappy, which made her wit, you know, acerbic, which is always good entertainment.

- Yes.

- Little did you realize how great that was because you're getting material all through your growing up.

- And she loved it.

She would come see me do standup and she would bring all the friends with her.

And then I would use some foul language and she would be horrified and she would apologize.

I'm so sorry.

I didn't know, you know, comedy was so vulgar.

You know, I wouldn't have brought you.

And then my comedian friends would meet her and I would say, this is my mom, they would go, Hi, Shirley.

And she would go, hi.

And it would be like this M.C.

Escher kind of, you know, involvement where we didn't know where Shirley ended and the satire of her began.

It was it was wild, but she loved it.

She gave me permission.

Use me any way you have to.

Just kept saying that.

I don't care what you say.

- Your dad wasn't big on the compliments, but he thought he was kind of helping you.

I thought it was kind of sweet that after all those years telling you, you know, you're not that smart, - you're not that smart... - Yeah.

And then when you were well into your career, what did he say?

- On my dad's deathbed, I made him take it back because I had this huge chip on my shoulder.

I'd walked around for years just thinking I wasn't very smart.

And he said, I'll tell you what, because my father had always pitted me against my brothers.

- Right.

They were the smart ones.

- You're not that bright but it's OK because you're pretty.

And my mother would say, well, you're not that pretty.

- You better study.

- Yeah.

That's where the title of the book came.

So on Dad's deathbed I said, take it back.

And he looked up and he said, I'll tell you what, first of all, there are no stupid Kaspers.

Not only are you smarter than all three of your brothers, but you got more cojones than all of them put together.

And I was like, really?

Really?

Will you tell them that?

He was like, hell no.

You're the one with the balls.

You tell them.

- Yeah.

- And then he kind of said, you know, I knew, he kind of said to me, I knew that this was... You're strong.

You were a strong little girl.

I knew you were going to grow up to be a strong woman.

This is a hard world for strong women.

- Right.

- So I wanted you to be tough.

- Right.

- And it worked.

- It did work.

- I was like, oh, thank you.

As I drink a bottle of vodka.

- Well, it probably came in handy having, you know, that tough edge, although I know you so well that I know that beneath that tough edges is the biggest heart in the world.

When you were a writer for Roseanne, what was that like?

- It was great, I loved... oh, Roseanne!

Oh, no, that was awful.

Rosie was great.

Yeah, two Roses.

If I got a talk show I would have had a hat trick.

Roseanne, that was a nightmare.

- OK. - That was a nightmare.

When I bump into people that I used to work with from that era, they would shake...

This one guy would shake his head and say, I'm still not ready to talk about it.

It was like Vietnam.

We were shell shocked and he just wasn't ready.

That was 20 years later.

She was terrible.

We would put in 90 hour weeks and then she would change her mind, let's do this now.

- She was...she was crazy.

- Wow.

But was O'Donnell a different story?

Rosie O'Donnell.

- Oh ,Rosie O'Donnell.

- Yeah.

- I loved Rosie.

It was, that was a really fun job.

And I got to dance as a reindeer at Christmas on her TV show.

- Did you ever see that?

- No.

Not many people can say that.

- It was a total mistake.

It was Christmas time and all the writers were pitching ideas.

And I was...I was out of ideas.

So I said, how about if we have your staff do like a really bad Christmas talent show?

And she said, well, like what?

I said, Oh, I don't know.

You know, somebody singing Rudolph The Red Nosed Reindeer, tap dancing.

She goes, OK, so we end the meeting and an hour later there's a knock on my door from the producer.

Debbie, she said yes to your idea, so now you have to find someone on the staff that will tap to Rudolph The Red Nosed Reindeer.

Oh, man.

So I'm knocking on producer doors.

I mean, there was about 200 people that worked for her.

So knocking on people's doors, everybody's like, no, no, I don't think so.

And the head writer, Jeanette Barber, said, well, Debbie, we're ordering the reindeer suit and you're dancin' on Monday.

Start practicing.

- So I had to do it.

- Wow.

What I love about your act in your shows, your one person shows and your book is how, you know, you get the laughs in, but you also get those sweet moments where you see the other side, which is what life is about.

It's a comedy and a tragedy all at the same time.

- You know, life is not exclusively tragedy - or comedy.

- Right?

Nothing annoys me more, unless you're watching a really tragic film, and you know that going into it, nothing annoys me more than watching something on TV or reading something that's like so dire.

It's like, how unhappy can these people be?

I mean, everybody find humor all day long.

That's how we survive.

It's...

It's what sets us apart from the mammals.

- Yeah.

- That and credit cards.

But we have the ability to laugh and see everything from the other side.

And I love that tone, you know, so I try to stroke it.

- You bring all those elements together beautifully in your shows, in your writing.

So thank you so much, Debbie.

I'm so thrilled that you could join us.

Good to see you again after all these years.

- Good to see you.

Look, Grover, love you.

Debbie Kasper, a comic and actress, writer, producer who can have you rolling in the aisles one minute and going for the tissues the next.

Well, that's all for this episode.

I want to thank my guests, the hilarious comic author and Love Master Craig Shoemaker, one of America's great political commentators, Michael Smerconish, and my old friend, standup comic author and actress, hysterically funny Debbie Kasper.

And thank you for joining us tonight.

Don't forget to stop by next week for more amazing guests and great conversation right here at the counter.